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Over 90% of Indian techies in the US are upper-caste Indians

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Re: Over 90% of Indian techies in the US are upper-caste Indians

#631

Post by Loughla »

mrep wrote: post #620
Loughla wrote: post #341

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I absolutely would call them the same. What is different in a caste system you are born into that provides privilege for some, but lack of resources to another and a class system that provides wealth and privilege for some, but lack of resources beginning at birth for others? When education from an early age is funded via property taxes (as much of the US is), we are baking in the inequality. If you come from a wealt…

What people are in this 'in-group' you speak of because evidently I'm not in it because nobody questions me in a class sort of way about sports, hobbies, my plain t-shirts, shorts and sandals, my subaru car or anything of that sort. My internships admittedly weren't unpaid but that is generally for poorly paying careers anyways and I'm a highly paid software engineer nor did I get my job through connections of any so…

So what you're doing is using anecdotal data to draw conclusions.

Your experience sounds awesome! But to think that, because you did 'Thing A', means 'Thing B' doesn't exist is odd to me.

Overt class signaling from today, at my job:

Conversation between co-workers regarding weekend plans. Co-worker A is going to her weekend house. Co-worker B is going on a float trip on her pontoon boat. I am helping my grandpa re-do his front porch steps, because he can't afford to have a contractor build a ramp for his wheelchair.

Insert blank stare from co-workers A and B here.

It's not as if someone is saying, "What car do you drive, is it worth $55,000?" Instead, they question as to why you drive a 10 year old Kia instead of trading it in, YEARS ago for a new car. They then make you the butt of any jokes about being a cheapskate or penny pincher, when in fact, that's all you can afford because you're supporting an extended family still living in poverty.

It's not as if someone is judging you based on your clothes, by explicitly saying things like, "why don't you wear a tuxedo" or whatever. But it may be that you are passed over for promotions, because you can't afford the clothes to fit in at the golf club (let alone the fees for the membership), so you don't get to rub elbows with executives. That's if you even understand that's a thing.

Re: Over 90% of Indian techies in the US are upper-caste Indians

#632

Post by heavyset_go »

_hhkc wrote: post #184
_jgdh wrote: post #80

For people who discuss this with Indian co-workers - don't be surprised if they find this bizarre or far fetched. For most upper caste folks, it appears as if the caste system doesn't exist because they've never been at the receiving end of it. Most people (me included) would be tempted to say - I've never discriminated, I've never seen it happen in front of me, I'm confident none of my friends would do it so therefo…

I've experienced some of my Indian coworkers criticize BLM, which was a bit surprising. I don't know what caste they belong to, though.

Marginalized people speaking up or protesting bothers people with authoritarian personality traits because those acts are interpreted as attacks upon rigid social hierarchy.

It doesn't really have anything to do with the content of BLM's message, but everything to do with who is saying it, how they're saying it, and to whom.

Re: Over 90% of Indian techies in the US are upper-caste Indians

#633

Post by johnrgrace »

tomp wrote: post #444
sjy wrote: post #379

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The relatively large number of tech billionaires – people with tens of thousands of times the median wealth – is a strange thing to use as an indicator of “meritocracy.”

Actually, one of the main criticism of meritocracy (as in, the social structure that we (the Western civilisation) strive to have, not the stupid "it's not actually a meritocracy" argument) is that, combined with assortative mating, it would eventually result in incredibly unequal society, with high-IQ genes becoming increasingly concentrated.

That assortative mating can also quickly leads to autism. We've got 30,000 engineers stuffed into a one square mile campus and they get married and have kids. The autism rates of kids with two technical parents is really high.

Re: Over 90% of Indian techies in the US are upper-caste Indians

#634

Post by monoideism »

buran77 wrote: post #610
monoideism wrote: post #597

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> When the other person is just as educated, or smart, or capable, or sometimes they may be even better, you pull out this card which is by definition impossible to fight. You can't reasonably change them. So some people will keep working to make these still "a thing", something they can always use to get an edge they don't deserve. This could also be a 100% accurate description of affirmative action.

Of course at first sight "affirmative action" has a similar effect and taken to the extreme it can have just as many negative consequences. But it also depends on how narrow your view of what's happening is, how far you "zoom in". The intention of reasonable affirmative action is vastly different and yes, that matters. If you take a narrow enough view, a criminal being locked up is no different from a person being ki…

> To the point, if you got a job purely based on such advantages as gender or skin color,

But even if someone did get a job based solely on their skin color or gender (increasingly rare in the US), there's no guarantee or even likelihood that the next random person who loses a job because of affirmative action ever got one because of his/her skin color.

To take the most obvious example, what if the losing party is just entering the workforce? How are they guilty, other than by their skin color?

No, you can't solve racism with racism. It only causes more ill will. It's not a popular opinion these days, but I'm quite sure it won't help us attain a more just, harmonious society. Only firmly rejecting all forms of racism will get us there.

In any case, it's increasingly clear these days that attaining a racially harmonious society is no longer an objective for many folks. It's all a power play, for themselves and their political or identity group.

The past 5-10 years have been utterly discouraging for someone who hoped we could move past racial thinking as a society. I was wrong to be hopeful, for a variety of reasons now clear to me.

Re: Over 90% of Indian techies in the US are upper-caste Indians

#635

Post by [deleted] »

neilk wrote: post #190
_hhkc wrote: post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've experienced some of my Indian coworkers criticize BLM, which was a bit surprising. I don't know what caste they belong to, though.

It's surprising to you because North Americans have gotten used to saying "people of color" as if they were all united. Upper-caste Indians basically see themselves as people on top of the racial hierarchy. In many ways they identify far more strongly with British or American elites than with Dalits.

[deleted]

Re: Over 90% of Indian techies in the US are upper-caste Indians

#636

Post by brokenmachine »

lowend wrote: post #214

ITT: (Possibly) "Upper caste" Indians claiming: 1. This is due to a few bad apples 2. Reservation is the real problem (no it's not) 3. I don't do it therefore it doesn't exist I can tell you by experience the amount of concious and unconcious bias regarding caste amongst Indians both in India and abroad is ridiculous! I'm light skinned so people assume I'm "upper caste" and speak with me as such. My last name doesn't…

>people casually either slip in sentences or assume castes and speak as such.

Excuse my ignorance but how does one "speak as such" because of caste?

Are there different words, eg like "tu" and "vous" in French?

Re: Over 90% of Indian techies in the US are upper-caste Indians

#637

Post by SamReidHughes »

MisterBastahrd wrote: post #360
higerordermap wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This. I think US people see caste system as something like skin color based racism in west. Actually it is much more complicated than that. I know people from upper castes who were actually middle class farmers, and those from lower castes that got benefit from quotas even if they were rich[0]. Affirmative action is always bad. Because the people getting benefit of it are likely to be privileged. In this particular l…

No, it really is not more complicated. The US has its own implicit systems of discrimination. The white racist from Tennessee is going to be looked down upon by the white racist from Connecticut who will be looked down upon by the white racist with a Central Park apartment. Affirmative action is not "always bad." There are multiple purposes of affirmative action, some of which have NOTHING to do with the individual s…

> You know why? Because the owners are white.

Actually it’s because being black isn’t an advantage in coaching the way it is on the field. White guys tend to suck at a lot of positions, but they’re perfectly capable of coaching. So you have a reasonable proportion of black coaches.

Re: Over 90% of Indian techies in the US are upper-caste Indians

#638

Post by brokenmachine »

jobigoud wrote: post #575
tw600040 wrote: post #415

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Depends. So who should win the 100 m olympics? someone who is fastest or someone who was discriminated against? Which team should win the football match? the team that scores the most points or should the background of the players be a criteria?

There is actually a related system in place at the Olympics which few people talk about. Only 3 people of each country are allowed to compete in a given event. This has led to many athletes in the top 10 worldwide to not be able to participate because they are from a dominating country. For example Kenyans in 3000 steeple.

Good point.

Lol, also things like Eric "The Eel" Moussambani at the Sydney 2000 Olympics.

Re: Over 90% of Indian techies in the US are upper-caste Indians

#639

Post by brokenmachine »

fakedang wrote: post #451
sneak wrote: post #398

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Even in the US, people casually either slip in sentences or assume castes and speak as such. What kinds of things do they say, or how does their speaking change once they learn? I'm totally outside of this culture but have been studying caste discrimination and its history lately and have been trying to learn all I can about it.

They'll sneak in the odd question here and there. Maybe they'll find out from the surname, or perhaps the locality of the town/city you're from in India, or the kind of food you eat (upper-castes are mainly vegetarian), or your dialect. Heck sometimes the deity you worship will reveal one's caste.

But then what? They talk down to you if you are a lower caste? In what ways does their behavior change if they know your caste? If they talked down to you and you told them that you don't appreciate their tone, then what would happen?

Re: Over 90% of Indian techies in the US are upper-caste Indians

#640

Post by econcon »

thewhitetulip wrote: post #554
ascat wrote: post #551

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How the empty seats of SC/ST in the IITS reflect that they are disadvantaged? They have much less cut off, many SC/ST give the exam, their fees is much much less than the general category, they get scholarships. How are they disadvantaged ?

My brother living in his hamlet has no electricity after 8pm, has 0 access to coaching and has little to no access to books or anything related. This is circa 2000s though. The village has affluent upper caste people while the lower caste people still do menial jobs Reservations are meant for them. But the city folk who have the most knowledge and access to money abuse this system while real poor lower class people a…

Ofc here assumption being made is that college is the deciding factor of success later in life.

Most backward cast candidates will be unable to forge deeper connection with powerful ellite caste people and they'll suffer in networking/connection game.

Education is just one of the many factor, if you don't have connections - you can't get people to believe you or invest in your business, your paper degree isn't going to do much.

Historically, new connections (both social and business) were forged based on marriage which was limited to marrying within specific cast. As a result power accumulated through network effect in hands of a few.

No matter how much education you put in backward cast candidates they are not able to get inside "ellite" network of upper caste people.

I'll give you a counter example, one of my friend dropped out after highschool and another one (backward cast) got degree from IIT university.

Today highschool upper caste person has more wealth and married to a local celebrity while the backward one is at government office and he hates his job, only people he party with are people of his own communities. Many times he's not invited to the private parties by his bosses. On paper tho, you might envy his job but socially tho he's an outcast - it's not changing soon either. He himself acknowledged, he's only boss at work but outside work, no one gives him much respect.

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