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How to say no, for the people pleaser who always says yes

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Re: How to say no, for the people pleaser who always says yes

#231

Post by pessimizer »

If you're a people-pleaser, don't ever do what this article is calling a "soft no." It's proposing this as a compromise between a "hard no" and a yes, but there's no benefit in being compromised here. The more practice you get with your "hard no," the better you'll get at it. Eventually you'll have to pull back because you're finding it too easy to say no. That's when you know you're cured.

A "soft no" given to an assertive person just means "I'm telling you what's keeping me from saying yes, if you solve it, it's a yes." You will get talked into saying "yes" every time you speak to a person with social skills, and your "soft no" will only stand with people who are shy or unassertive, regardless of the merit of the requests. It'll inevitably lead to getting used by the people who have the least consideration for other people's time, and who always push as a general policy.

Just say "no." You don't have to say it quickly; wait to hear the person's case if you need to, but at the point when you mean "no," say "no." If you honestly feel you need to be convinced, or you need solutions to obstructions that are keeping you from agreeing, just say so, but don't confuse that with a "no."

Re: How to say no, for the people pleaser who always says yes

#232

Post by bigwavedave »

momokoko wrote: post #188

The whole make yourself happy first mentality is a bizarre side effect of therapy. Therapists have one client. Not the client’s family, friends, coworkers, and community. Because of that much of the advice therapist give benefits the client at the expense of everyone else. This creates a toxic environment when you have a large percentage of any group going to therapy and practicing me first techniques. I wonder if th…

> Because of that much of the advice the therapist give benefits the client at the expense of everyone else.

Hold up there- for such a sweeping generalization, I'd argue that you need to give clear-cut examples of this effect that you call "toxic" in your next sentence. You're not grasping the target audience here or even what the "me first" attitude is if you say it's at the expense of others. Let me give several examples of the people you claim are toxic.

My fiancée is a people pleaser- she is someone this article was written for and who seeks therapy. Tell me, how is it at the "expense of everyone else" for her to now be able to politely and confidently tell her bulldozer of a friend that she'd rather go home and sleep at 23:00 in anticipation of her 06:00 shift instead of watching "classic" movies her friend wants to watch until 04:00 three or four times each week? I'd contest that it isn't.

How is it "at the expense of everyone else" for my little brother to be able to politely yet assertively tell his housemates he'd rather get a head start on his CS term project this weekend than get sloshed and deal with a hangover? I'd contest that it isn't.

How does it "create a toxic environment" for me to take some PTO to avoid burnout instead of participating in the actually toxic culture of a company that has an unlimited PTO policy but considers it taboo for anyone to take time off? I'd contest that it isn't.

I'd contest that it isn't "at the expense of everyone else" for any individual who's been raised to do anything and everything their mates, family, ecclesiastical associates, coworkers, casual acqauaintences, etc ad nauseam ad infinitum asks of them to instead say "hey, I'm going to take care of my mental health by learning to be assertive instead of burning out or being miserable forever."

There are ENDLESS comments and articles on hn lauding people who make choices to avoid burning out on their careers, about learning not to say "yes" to every request from a coworker that comes across their desk, yet I don't see anyone crying about how this is "toxic" and that it's "at the expense of everyone else"; you somehow seem to think this same principle doesn't apply to individuals in their own lives.

I hope these examples illuminate who this article is meant for and clarify what the "me first" attitude is in this context.

Re: How to say no, for the people pleaser who always says yes

#233

Post by defen »

twobuy wrote: post #215
Razengan wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This is one of the main reasons why I prefer living in big cities. Big Cities also amplify loneliness and make it more crushing when you just keep getting lost in the crowd. Concrete jungles with more traffic than trees are also a depressing drain upon the soul. My ideal sweet spot is Small Towns near a Big City that you can dip into once every weekend or so.

This sounds great to me, but could you give an example of the sort of town you mean? I am only really experienced with NYC, which due to geographic and traffic constraints, just seems difficult to dip into more than once a month.

If you live in or around Princeton NJ you can live in a nice college town that's about 1.5 hours from NYC by train or 50 minutes to Philadelphia by car.

Re: How to say no, for the people pleaser who always says yes

#234

Post by agumonkey »

galfarragem wrote: post #67
agumonkey wrote: post #58

I suffered from this in way I can barely explain. Recently I came to a place where I thought that 'if' you live your life like an adventure where anything you do has to be very exciting, than a yes means you really want to do, not just a 'why not' but something that tickles your soul. And a no was the reflection of that, "I could come, and do that, but it will be boring in a way and I'll only be a ghost which would b…

Derek Sivers says exactly that: https://sive.rs/hellyeah

Thanks, it's also reminiscent with Bukowsky 'do not try'

Re: How to say no, for the people pleaser who always says yes

#235

Post by ramses0 »

cgriswald wrote: post #173
bladegash wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hah, I think I may be the exact opposite. It triggers anxiety within me, which then triggers perfectionism, which then triggers all kinds of unhealthy other compulsions. I really do try to tackle everything, and exceed expectations, at a personal cost (e.g., burnout). One time I lost 25 pounds due to stress, which ended up being a positive as I have kept it off, but was miserable at the time.

I definitely leaned on the perfectionist side. Some of this is messy and difficult to pull apart because although I brought this problem into the marriage my ex is not blameless either. One thing I know is a direct consequence of never saying no is a lack of respect and a lack of attraction. Regardless of why a person never says no they are seen as a doormat, which is unattractive in both men and women. On the messie…

I strongly suggest reading about "Love Languages".

Simplistic summary: Just because you are "throwing" love doesn't mean someone is "catching" the love that you are throwing.

It explains a lot where someone may wash their partners car (Act of Service) but the partner complains about never receiving flowers (Gift Giving).

This concept was incredibly foreign to me until it was named, and then it became incredibly obvious, and not limited to relationships.

Re: How to say no, for the people pleaser who always says yes

#236

Post by tclancy »

pessimizer wrote: post #231

If you're a people-pleaser, don't ever do what this article is calling a "soft no." It's proposing this as a compromise between a "hard no" and a yes, but there's no benefit in being compromised here. The more practice you get with your "hard no," the better you'll get at it. Eventually you'll have to pull back because you're finding it too easy to say no. That's when you know you're cured. A "soft no" given to an as…

Yeah, that was the one weird bit to me. I definitely am one of these people and have only figured it out (somewhat) after 40 years. The soft No is the last thing you want to do. It's like playing cards (I hate to be so transactional about it) with yours on the table.

Re: How to say no, for the people pleaser who always says yes

#237

Post by sirmarksalot »

jonpurdy wrote: post #209
smoe wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is one of the main reasons why I prefer living in big cities. Compared to other places I've stayed, it makes it a whole lot easier to build and maintain human connections with people whose preferences and interests overlap with mine. I also do plenty of activities I'm not really interested in for the sake of socializing. But always just adopting to whatever is most popular at a given time would be soulcrushing t…

An interesting dichotomy between big cities vs small towns has come up and being discussed the replies to this. Interesting that it is a very North America-centric perspective. Go to South Korea or Japan and you'll find rural villages that are more densely packed than cities of 100,000+ in USA and Canada. This density allows for shops and convenience stores to be easily accessible and walkable in every neighbourhood,…

This is a really interesting tangent to go off on. I wonder if the reason for this is that Japan and Korea never really had a frontier the way the US did. I think the idea of a wide open wilderness, yours if you can tame it, contributes to a desire and expectation of a giant living space, all to yourself.

I don't know about Korea, but in Japan, most of society grew up around castle towns, and with the exception of post-war suburban development, those towns are still the same towns they have today, so population is distributed roughly the same way as in medieval times.

Re: How to say no, for the people pleaser who always says yes

#238

Post by FooBarBizBazz »

b0rsuk wrote: post #18

5 Tips To Stop People Pleasing (Richard Grannon, edited down to 15 minutes) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aRprOhOaDSo 8 signs you're too nice for your own good (Psych2Go, 5:45) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9lw4M4q2NFw If you're a people pleaser, you attract narcissists like a magnet. If you had narcissists in family, you develop a blind spot to this and are mostly unable to spot it. I STRONGLY recommend the Doct…

When you watch Ramani's videos, you can see everyone around her shrink in fear of getting the "narcissist" label themselves, and offer her deference. It doesn't take a genius to see why she'd invest in a professional identity that lets her do this.

In the comments, you can also see that many people identify with her and take pleasure from watching these displays.

Meditating on the figure of the Narcissist makes us see the Narcissist in others (so better to resist them), makes us pity the Narcissist (the better to show them contempt, and the better to elevate ourselves), and simultaneously makes us envy the Narcissist's self-seeking (to make us more self-interested ourselves). It turns us partly into Them. So even as an evil god, I am not sure the Narcissist belongs in our pantheon. Best if he is at most a bit player.

Re: How to say no, for the people pleaser who always says yes

#239

Post by Dahoon »

_jal wrote: post #195
Dahoon wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have the excact opposite experience. The closer you live, the more people protect their privacy sphere around them and more often avoid real connections with people they run into, like neighbors. After we moved from living close in the city to outside the city limits, with way more space around us, we went from "hello" when meeting a neighbor to now stopping up and talking for real and taking a real interest in eac…

That's funny. I grew up in a tiny town, and the gossipy busybodies just disgusted me. I literally heard a rumor about a family member before I heard the actual story from them once. Panty-sniffing busybodies with nothing to do but mind other peoples' business are a major reason I've lived in cities since I had the option.

>the gossipy busybodies just disgusted me

Again I funnily enough have the exact opposite experience. In my experience if you live near 1000 people there are a higher risk of there being "gossipy busybodies" than if you live near 100 people or 10. In my opinion the difference is not the amount of people that talk rumors, as it is likely always around the same percentage, but that they drown out in a big city. So I guess the question is, if that is true: Do you care about the rumor or about hearing the rumor?

All it takes to ruin it is one bad neighbor. I went from party and traffic noise, people trying to threaten me to back off when I complained of noise and drugs being sold to waving to people in the neighborhood, walking our dogs together, helping out when a car is broken down, etc. It is like night and day.

Re: How to say no, for the people pleaser who always says yes

#240

Post by [deleted] »

Dahoon wrote: post #239
_jal wrote: post #195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's funny. I grew up in a tiny town, and the gossipy busybodies just disgusted me. I literally heard a rumor about a family member before I heard the actual story from them once. Panty-sniffing busybodies with nothing to do but mind other peoples' business are a major reason I've lived in cities since I had the option.

>the gossipy busybodies just disgusted me Again I funnily enough have the exact opposite experience. In my experience if you live near 1000 people there are a higher risk of there being "gossipy busybodies" than if you live near 100 people or 10. In my opinion the difference is not the amount of people that talk rumors, as it is likely always around the same percentage, but that they drown out in a big city. So I gue…

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