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Over 90% of Indian techies in the US are upper-caste Indians

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Re: Over 90% of Indian techies in the US are upper-caste Indians

#461

Post by tassl »

tw600040 wrote: post #415
colinmhayes wrote: post #383

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is growing up with extreme discrimination not relevant?

Depends. So who should win the 100 m olympics? someone who is fastest or someone who was discriminated against? Which team should win the football match? the team that scores the most points or should the background of the players be a criteria?

That's a false analogy. Genetics can beat training but discrimination cannot be overcome without intervention. I'm a strong believer in equality of opportunities, but I feel that's constantly misunderstood.

If your family can pay you a tutor, you're given more opportunities. If you don't have to work after school, you're given more opportunities. If your family is educated and can give you guidance, you're given more opportunities. If your parents can pay for electricity, yes, you're given more opportunities.

We can keep going, but the privileged trend to think everything they got is due to their effort. Somebody that has a lower score than you might deserve access to a better university that you.

I was "privileged" growing up. We always had food in our plates; we couldn't dine out but my parents loved me and I could study at night. I had to work while studying but it was not the worst that I have seen. I was the first of my family going to a university but at least my parents understood that education was important and reinforced that in me.

Re: Over 90% of Indian techies in the US are upper-caste Indians

#462

Post by kyteland »

screye wrote: post #322
varbhat wrote: post #44

It is problem of those casteist employees of Cisco , Cisco , it's management and it's rules. They are simply not proper. There are many casteists too in many companies who must be terminated from Employment if casteist behavior is found. Note that not all upper-caste People are casteist and harmful. I also see many Rich People whose ancestors were Dalits, who no longer need any financial grant/food/shelter from the G…

> I also see many Rich People whose ancestors were Dalits, who no longer need any financial grant/food/shelter from the Government claiming it from Government. It only harms very poor Dalits in need. This is something I have been thinking quite a lot about. The Govt. really struggles to cap affirmative action to only those who need it. I knew people who were from lower castes, used reservation to get in and had Macbo…

It's a common line of thinking that a system is broken if there's a single instance of failure when the right measure is if it does more good than harm. I've heard that excuse in the US with regards to giving to the poor, "they might waste it on booze and drugs." Well sure, but they might also use it to keep from starving.

In this case, are there some people that "don't deserve it"? Certainly, but there's probably many more that do who are making use of the program. Adding overhead and bureaucracy to try to weed out the undeserving may very well make it so fewer people who need the assistance get it. It's human nature to overweight small negative outcomes while underweighting the larger good. You need to objectively study the problem to fully understand where the tipping point is which rarely happens because these types of things quickly become political.

I don't personally know enough about this particular topic to speak to it, but the general answer to the question

  > How hard is it to disqualify them due to financial means?
Is it's harder than you think without undermining the original goals of the of the program.

Re: Over 90% of Indian techies in the US are upper-caste Indians

#463

Post by tw600040 »

curiousllama wrote: post #442
tw600040 wrote: post #415

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Depends. So who should win the 100 m olympics? someone who is fastest or someone who was discriminated against? Which team should win the football match? the team that scores the most points or should the background of the players be a criteria?

Admissions counselors aren't arbitrating a match, they're predicting success and shaping an environment. Who's going to be more successful: someone tutored, mentored, and cajoled to a 1500 SAT or someone who never had sh*t and got a 1450 cold?

//Who's going to be more successful: someone tutored, mentored, and cajoled to a 1500 SAT or someone who never had sht and got a 1450 cold?

Yeah, so who should be given gold in olympics? someone who was trained and mentored and finished first or someone who never had sht and ran slower?

Re: Over 90% of Indian techies in the US are upper-caste Indians

#464

Post by rizpanjwani »

This truly bothers me that people bring their religious/casteist/nationalist/etc. baggage with them when they immigrate. I thought immigrants hope to start anew in a promising developed country precisely because of these issues back in their home countries. Why not leave everything behind and try to adhere to the liberal values that attracted us here in the first place?

Re: Over 90% of Indian techies in the US are upper-caste Indians

#465

Post by fhood »

sharadov wrote: post #301
gonehome wrote: post #288

Earlier quoted context omitted.

These same arguments are made about race in the US too. In fact, I think looking at both through the lens of caste is a better way to interrogate some of the issues. I thought this podcast made that point in a pretty compelling way: https://cafe.com/stay-tuned/americas-caste-system-with-isabe...

Interesting, I'll check it out. The caste system in India was originally based on profession, and people could move around freely between "castes" , at some point it was co-opted by assholes for their benefit.

I find the notion that discrimination based on profession is somehow acceptable extremely strange.

Re: Over 90% of Indian techies in the US are upper-caste Indians

#466

Post by AtlasLion »

rizpanjwani wrote: post #464

This truly bothers me that people bring their religious/casteist/nationalist/etc. baggage with them when they immigrate. I thought immigrants hope to start anew in a promising developed country precisely because of these issues back in their home countries. Why not leave everything behind and try to adhere to the liberal values that attracted us here in the first place?

they are human, not a robot you can reset to factory settings. it's only human that people have values that they uphold as the truth and that is hard to change. the place where you immigrate to is not necessarily superior. Immgrants could bring in values that improve their new home country.

Re: Over 90% of Indian techies in the US are upper-caste Indians

#467

Post by GavinMcG »

tw600040 wrote: post #463
curiousllama wrote: post #442

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Admissions counselors aren't arbitrating a match, they're predicting success and shaping an environment. Who's going to be more successful: someone tutored, mentored, and cajoled to a 1500 SAT or someone who never had sh*t and got a 1450 cold?

//Who's going to be more successful: someone tutored, mentored, and cajoled to a 1500 SAT or someone who never had sh t and got a 1450 cold? Yeah, so who should be given gold in olympics? someone who was trained and mentored and finished first or someone who never had sh t and ran slower?

College admissions isn't the finish line of "who is best". It's a starting point for developing potential, and thereafter college still isn't a competition to see who is best.

Re: Over 90% of Indian techies in the US are upper-caste Indians

#468

Post by yahnu »

tw600040 wrote: post #366
lowend wrote: post #214

ITT: (Possibly) "Upper caste" Indians claiming: 1. This is due to a few bad apples 2. Reservation is the real problem (no it's not) 3. I don't do it therefore it doesn't exist I can tell you by experience the amount of concious and unconcious bias regarding caste amongst Indians both in India and abroad is ridiculous! I'm light skinned so people assume I'm "upper caste" and speak with me as such. My last name doesn't…

//How the fuck is a person's caste relevant? This is normal for you? I agree. It shouldn't be. But then it shouldn't be relevant during admissions too yeh?

The merit(score) of a student is dependent on factors other than the student's aptitude such as the financial status of the family, guidance received at young age etc.

The students from lower-caste communities usually are also from low-income families and lack proper guidance (partly because the parents are not educated) compared to students from upper-class communities.

The reservation in academia is relevant to uplift people who are from disadvantaged communities. The society as a whole whould benefit from it.

IMO, there are valid criticism of implementation details of reservation for lower-caste in India, such as:

* should a person who belongs to lower-caste get eligibility for reserved quota if that person's parents also benefited from reserved quota?

* should caste based reservation be allowed in instances that require highly specialized skills? As opposed to equal treatment based on only merit. (Example: admissions to MD, Govt. jobs that requires highly specialized skills)

You can criticise implementation details of the reservation-system used as a tool by the Government to correct historical imbalance in society but not the idea as a whole because the system in place is showing positive results. We have made a lot progress in last few decades but still a long way to go in good direction. This is my opinion as an Indian techie from an upper-caste family.

Edit: typos / grammar

Re: Over 90% of Indian techies in the US are upper-caste Indians

#469

Post by yumraj »

lowend wrote: post #214

ITT: (Possibly) "Upper caste" Indians claiming: 1. This is due to a few bad apples 2. Reservation is the real problem (no it's not) 3. I don't do it therefore it doesn't exist I can tell you by experience the amount of concious and unconcious bias regarding caste amongst Indians both in India and abroad is ridiculous! I'm light skinned so people assume I'm "upper caste" and speak with me as such. My last name doesn't…

> 2. Reservation is the real problem (no it's not)

Of course Reservation IS the problem if you're unfortunate to be an upper caste.

The problem is that a caste-based reservation did NOT eliminate caste-based bias, it amplified it. More and more castes, outside the original designation, demanded it in exchange for votes, and more and more upper caste Indians felt cheated as they lost limited opportunities that should have been purely been given on merit basis.

NOTE: I support reservation if it is on the basis of economic criteria, wherein a student genuinely did not get the opportunities as they were growing up. The problem is, India is full of lower-caste affluent families where generations have taken advantage of the reservation, while the poor lower-caste, and upper-caste, people have languished. And due to the reservation, these affluent lower-caste students, in general do now have to work as hard as the students competing in the general category.

Tamil Nadu has 69% reservation, there is similar data for other states.

In IIT, while there was cutthroat competition for general category seats, SC/ST (reserved category) seats went unfilled since in the IITs there was (not sure if it still is there) a min standard was required.

Every, baring maybe 1-2 exceptions, of SC/STs were in slow paced category, which meant they graduated in 5 years as opposed to everyone else graduating in 4 years.

What this meant is that by default the general category students who made through the system, were on average, better educated and trained, than the lower-caste equivalents.

This is just the unfortunate truth.

Re: Over 90% of Indian techies in the US are upper-caste Indians

#470

Post by technofiend »

lowend wrote: post #214

ITT: (Possibly) "Upper caste" Indians claiming: 1. This is due to a few bad apples 2. Reservation is the real problem (no it's not) 3. I don't do it therefore it doesn't exist I can tell you by experience the amount of concious and unconcious bias regarding caste amongst Indians both in India and abroad is ridiculous! I'm light skinned so people assume I'm "upper caste" and speak with me as such. My last name doesn't…

I once asked a co-worker if he felt caste ever impacted him in any way. He said well when I went to the local visa office in India the officer behind the desk approving visas had a certain surname. Only 25 people a day are approved for a Visa and except for me, everyone else in the room had that officer's surname.
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