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Over 90% of Indian techies in the US are upper-caste Indians

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Re: Over 90% of Indian techies in the US are upper-caste Indians

#401

Post by sneak »

thatfrenchguy wrote: post #251
_jgdh wrote: post #80

For people who discuss this with Indian co-workers - don't be surprised if they find this bizarre or far fetched. For most upper caste folks, it appears as if the caste system doesn't exist because they've never been at the receiving end of it. Most people (me included) would be tempted to say - I've never discriminated, I've never seen it happen in front of me, I'm confident none of my friends would do it so therefo…

> For people who discuss this with Indian co-workers - don't be surprised if they find this bizarre or far fetched. For most upper caste folks, it appears as if the caste system doesn't exist because they've never been at the receiving end of it. A little bit like the class system in the United States (or France) eh :-)

> A little bit like the class system in the United States (or France) eh :-)

Maybe in France, I don't know about that. But from what I've learned about the caste system, it's nothing like the class system in the US.

Sure, the US class system is (statistically speaking) heritable, but it doesn't follow you around for life, tied to your surname, determining who you can marry or what jobs you're allowed to get, or if you'll get beaten simply for walking into certain buildings or touching strangers.

US racism might be a more appropriate comparison.

Re: Over 90% of Indian techies in the US are upper-caste Indians

#402

Post by travmatt »

sharadov wrote: post #301
gonehome wrote: post #288

Earlier quoted context omitted.

These same arguments are made about race in the US too. In fact, I think looking at both through the lens of caste is a better way to interrogate some of the issues. I thought this podcast made that point in a pretty compelling way: https://cafe.com/stay-tuned/americas-caste-system-with-isabe...

Interesting, I'll check it out. The caste system in India was originally based on profession, and people could move around freely between "castes" , at some point it was co-opted by assholes for their benefit.

I believe Europe had a guild system that operated in the same way, IIRC. I’d be curious about how those systems compared and evolved.

Re: Over 90% of Indian techies in the US are upper-caste Indians

#403

Post by rational_indian »

mcv wrote: post #122
cheph wrote: post #5

> It may seem bizarre that the caste system, a centuries-old system that organises and stratifies human society, continues to play a heavy role in deciding which Indians prosper and which don't within a space many consider to be an uber-meritocracy -- the US tech landscape. Well for I'm not surprised, and further I doubt anybody in it considers it an "uber-meritocracy", it really is much more perverse.

Yeah, that the tech industry is a meritocracy is a myth that's popular with the white educated middle-class men who like to believe they have more merit than other groups. (I'm a white educated middle-class man myself, and a career in the tech world has been easy and natural for me. I'd love to believe it's because I'm really that good, but I try to be aware of my privilege.)

Don't be too hard on yourself! I am Indian and from what I can tell the proverbial glass ceiling has been lifted for brown people like me in the US. And I think the same can be said for people of other ethnicities as well. So credit where credit is due. IMHO the US is a meritocratic workplace.

Re: Over 90% of Indian techies in the US are upper-caste Indians

#404

Post by travmatt »

paxys wrote: post #389
mabbo wrote: post #304

At no point do they say "Our company does not and did not allow discrimination against a person for being dalit". That is all they would have to say to take a clear stance- and they don't. > "Cisco is committed to an inclusive workplace for all," the company said in a statement to online news site thewire. > "We have robust processes to report and investigate concerns raised by employees which were followed in this c…

They don't say it because it is a legal matter and it would be stupid to make a statement about it to the media.

If you’re commenting to the media, it’s beyond a legal matter.

Re: Over 90% of Indian techies in the US are upper-caste Indians

#405

Post by shuckles »

jrochkind1 wrote: post #390
shuckles wrote: post #340

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If caste only came up in a mutual interest decision like a wedding where there aren't power imbalances, isn't that fine? Who someone chooses to marry seems like an unreasonable place to intervene to resolve disparities.

Who's talking about intervening? If someone was interested in marrying me until they found out I was Jewish (the closest analogy to my own experience), I would not think that was "fine". Even if I don't know any way to "intervene" in it, certainly not if you mean legally, governments should not be in the business of telling people who to marry. But if you told me that there aren't power imbalances in marriage decisio…

“Caste is a huge problem. To substantiate this, let me tell you about the story of a person who didn’t seem to care about caste at all, but later decided to not marry someone over it.”

That is not a story which substantiates the claim that caste is a huge problem. I agree that someone who made a marriage decision based on caste isn’t someone I’d want to marry in the first place.

My comment about power imbalances can be read in two ways: there are no power imbalances in marriage or conditioned on there not being power imbalances in that particular decision. I meant the latter, but you seem to be attacking the former.

Re: Over 90% of Indian techies in the US are upper-caste Indians

#406

Post by hairband »

anonymousJim12 wrote: post #354

I'm not sure if this will be seen but I'm very curious to hear from Indian folk: I am the hiring manager at a well known software company that employs a lot of Indians on H1B visas. A while back I brought in an Indian person for a full round interview. This person happen to have pretty dark skin. On the interview team was a light skinned Indian person with a very Brahmin last name that I'd say is pretty average techn…

Pardon me for making assumptions but you seem to be not Indian, which makes me wonder how did you know that one of the persons on the interview panel had "very Brahmin last name"?

Re: Over 90% of Indian techies in the US are upper-caste Indians

#407

Post by sharadov »

pm90 wrote: post #371
sharadov wrote: post #281

Unfortunately, the caste system is more complex than the issue of race in the US. The reservation system in India was instituted to bring parity between the downtrodden castes and the upper castes. When I was in engineering school in the late 90s, if you were from a lower caste, you barely had to get passing marks in the engineering entrance exam to make it to a top engineering school. And you would still have unfill…

To right historical wrongs is not easy. I initially thought of the reservation system as a terrible idea because of exactly the reasons you stated. These policies are meant to help society in aggregates so there will always be folks who get screwed. Its important to keep trying though. While slavery in the US is perhaps 300 years old, the caste system has been seemingly around since the beginning of civilization on t…

It was meant as repatriation of resources back to the downtrodden, as all well meaning ideas start off....

True, am not against that, but without checks and balances, as as happened in India, it ends up creating another set of problems ( poor Brahmins now complain of lack of opportunities).

The caste system was not as rigid before, it was more a system around professions ( Brahmins - intellectual class, the Kshatriyas - warriors, Vyshya - Merchants), until someone at the top decided it did not have to be based on that anymore.

Re: Over 90% of Indian techies in the US are upper-caste Indians

#408

Post by ohashi »

tw600040 wrote: post #366
lowend wrote: post #214

ITT: (Possibly) "Upper caste" Indians claiming: 1. This is due to a few bad apples 2. Reservation is the real problem (no it's not) 3. I don't do it therefore it doesn't exist I can tell you by experience the amount of concious and unconcious bias regarding caste amongst Indians both in India and abroad is ridiculous! I'm light skinned so people assume I'm "upper caste" and speak with me as such. My last name doesn't…

//How the fuck is a person's caste relevant? This is normal for you? I agree. It shouldn't be. But then it shouldn't be relevant during admissions too yeh?

That's a false equivalence

Re: Over 90% of Indian techies in the US are upper-caste Indians

#409

Post by shuckles »

tehlike wrote: post #394
shuckles wrote: post #340

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If caste only came up in a mutual interest decision like a wedding where there aren't power imbalances, isn't that fine? Who someone chooses to marry seems like an unreasonable place to intervene to resolve disparities.

except, imagine the conscious and unconscious bias it leads to. your socialization circles are all people in similar castes no?

I agree that caste preference in marriage can have bad effects, similar to many other filter bubble mechanics in society. It’s also probably a symptom of other problematic concepts of value.

Re: Over 90% of Indian techies in the US are upper-caste Indians

#410

Post by danans »

sharadov wrote: post #301
gonehome wrote: post #288

Earlier quoted context omitted.

These same arguments are made about race in the US too. In fact, I think looking at both through the lens of caste is a better way to interrogate some of the issues. I thought this podcast made that point in a pretty compelling way: https://cafe.com/stay-tuned/americas-caste-system-with-isabe...

Interesting, I'll check it out. The caste system in India was originally based on profession, and people could move around freely between "castes" , at some point it was co-opted by assholes for their benefit.

> The caste system in India was originally based on profession

That is the official political line, but the reality (as always) was much more complex. It also had a significant tribal, multi-racial, and multi-cultural bases, all evidenced in scriptures and the cultural, linguistic, and genetic landscape of the Indian subcontinent (including Pakistan, Bangladish, Nepal, and Sri Lanka). In that respect it's nothing unique even to India - the social structures of most of the world were built on the same basis.

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