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Acorn Woodpeckers Have Multi-Day Wars, and Birds Come from All Around to Watch

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Re: Acorn Woodpeckers Have Multi-Day Wars, and Birds Come from All Around to Watch

#31

Post by AgentMatt »

_0ffh wrote: post #22
dalbasal wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

" either deterministic or random " is a possibly dangerous dichotomy. Some things are neither determined nor random, in the "arbitrary" sense of the term. A child that grows up in a musical household is more likely to become a musician. That's neither random nor determined. In populations, or over repeated instances, these can resolve to near deterministic results. At the individual level, they are more random seemin…

Don't know about the danger in there, but what else would you want to add to the mix besides determinism and randomness? I don't know of anything else that could possibly have any influence, unless you want to go supernatural.

I share the sentiment of the parent with regards to "either deterministic or random" sounding off to me.

I wanted to propose "stochastic" as a better term, but apparently "random" and "stochastic" are synonyms. [1]

What it comes down to is that "random" to me has a connotation of arbitrary, unpredictable. Whereas "stochastic" to me suggests a deterministic process with random influences.

So maybe the sentiment is better expressed as making sure it is clear that deterministic and random are the two extremes of a continuum, rather than an either/or distinction.

[1] https://math.stackexchange.com/questions/114373/whats-the-di...

Re: Acorn Woodpeckers Have Multi-Day Wars, and Birds Come from All Around to Watch

#32

Post by yetihehe »

air7 wrote: post #16
HenryKissinger wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you saying that humans are partially automatons pre-programmed to behave in certain specific ways in certain situations? What are the implications of a theory like that for free will?

I always feel like the gloomy conclusion that we humans have no free will is always just two logical jumps away and we just prefer not to take them.

I like the idea of hitting people who say we have no free will. I tried it once, but it's counter-productive for discussion. Subject was more occupied with the fact of hitting him than with continuing discusussion if my action should have consequences or not (no free will = I didn't do it out of my own will, so why should I suffer consequences).

Re: Acorn Woodpeckers Have Multi-Day Wars, and Birds Come from All Around to Watch

#33

Post by DFHippie »

dalbasal wrote: post #6

I find these animal behavioural studies fascinating. There is always the risk of personification clouding our understanding, when we observe similarities to human behaviour. But another angle is de-personification of our own behaviour. That seems insightful in all sorts of way. Certain behaviours, like "war," almost certainly predate cognitive modernity... modern human consciousness. Gwynne Dyer, a historian of war,…

This comment presupposes that we know more about consciousness and what beings are conscious than I think is justified. Also what beings are capable of rationalizations.

Re: Acorn Woodpeckers Have Multi-Day Wars, and Birds Come from All Around to Watch

#34

Post by nradov »

dalbasal wrote: post #7
herodotus wrote: post #4

I have a bird feeder in my small back garden. Sometimes there is a lot of activity - mainly chickadees, finches and goldfinches competing for the feeder perches. When this happens, a hummingbird often shows up and seems to just be watching the activity. (I don't have a hummingbird feeder). I have no idea why it does this.

Possibly for the same reason you watch it. It's interesting.

It must be really interesting for the hummingbirds considering the metabolic cost. Unlike some other birds they have to eat almost constantly to maintain body weight.

Re: Acorn Woodpeckers Have Multi-Day Wars, and Birds Come from All Around to Watch

#35

Post by ManBlanket »

Two days ago I heard a loud, "SQUEE! Bock bock bock bock." from our back yard. Two (Flicker) woodpeckers were fighting in the branches of a maple, our chickens standing around foot of the tree seemingly captivated by the spectacle. I assume the cause of the commotion was the tussle finding its way to the ground, startling the chickens.

When I realized what was going on my daughter and I crept outside to watch. The woodpeckers and chickens ignored us as we sat down at the tree. The contenders hopping from branch to branch, diving at each other, dodging, and trying to get an angle on the other. They landed together on the roof of the nearby coop jumped up in the air and locked together in a flurry of feathers. Again the loud, "SQUEEE!" right before they hit the ground, both of them alighting on their feet, one with two of the other's breast feathers in its beak. The apparent victor of the clash exaggeratedly held the feathers above its head and gently placed them on the ground before the two of them zipped away to a power line where they remained for a while, seemingly calm. My daughter recovered the two feathers, both a downy orange quill extending up to a stark black dot, and shared her experience the next morning with her class mates.

Funny I came across this article now, I'll have to share it with her when she returns from school.

Re: Acorn Woodpeckers Have Multi-Day Wars, and Birds Come from All Around to Watch

#36

Post by dalbasal »

nradov wrote: post #34
dalbasal wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Possibly for the same reason you watch it. It's interesting.

It must be really interesting for the hummingbirds considering the metabolic cost. Unlike some other birds they have to eat almost constantly to maintain body weight.

Gotta make time for some recreation no matter who you are.

Re: Acorn Woodpeckers Have Multi-Day Wars, and Birds Come from All Around to Watch

#37

Post by dalbasal »

_0ffh wrote: post #22
dalbasal wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

" either deterministic or random " is a possibly dangerous dichotomy. Some things are neither determined nor random, in the "arbitrary" sense of the term. A child that grows up in a musical household is more likely to become a musician. That's neither random nor determined. In populations, or over repeated instances, these can resolve to near deterministic results. At the individual level, they are more random seemin…

Don't know about the danger in there, but what else would you want to add to the mix besides determinism and randomness? I don't know of anything else that could possibly have any influence, unless you want to go supernatural.

Is evolution by natural selection deterministic or random?

Re: Acorn Woodpeckers Have Multi-Day Wars, and Birds Come from All Around to Watch

#38

Post by dalbasal »

AgentMatt wrote: post #31
_0ffh wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't know about the danger in there, but what else would you want to add to the mix besides determinism and randomness? I don't know of anything else that could possibly have any influence, unless you want to go supernatural.

I share the sentiment of the parent with regards to "either deterministic or random" sounding off to me. I wanted to propose "stochastic" as a better term, but apparently "random" and "stochastic" are synonyms. [1] What it comes down to is that "random" to me has a connotation of arbitrary, unpredictable. Whereas "stochastic" to me suggests a deterministic process with random influences. So maybe the sentiment is bet…

That is what I meant, which is why I said "in the arbitrary sense."

I think our language is lacking here. In technical terms, neither random nor stochastic imply evenly distributed. In casual conversation, "random" does.

"Emergent" may be a better term for what I meant. Randomness (in the casual sense) is an ingredient in a stochastic process leading to non-random, even effectively deterministic results.

The comment I was replying to:

"the inputs that drive that subjective feeling are still either deterministic or random."

The ingredients which lead someone to suddenly sing a son apropos of nothing (seemingly random/arbitrary) are the same as those leading someone to pull their finger away from a flame... seemingly deterministic.

Re: Acorn Woodpeckers Have Multi-Day Wars, and Birds Come from All Around to Watch

#39

Post by dalbasal »

celim307 wrote: post #20
HenryKissinger wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you saying that humans are partially automatons pre-programmed to behave in certain specific ways in certain situations? What are the implications of a theory like that for free will?

We are just the biological process whose end result is the singularity. We are the stepping stone for the final consciousness

Perhaps for the first consciousness.

Re: Acorn Woodpeckers Have Multi-Day Wars, and Birds Come from All Around to Watch

#40

Post by gkolli »

ManBlanket wrote: post #35

Two days ago I heard a loud, "SQUEE! Bock bock bock bock." from our back yard. Two (Flicker) woodpeckers were fighting in the branches of a maple, our chickens standing around foot of the tree seemingly captivated by the spectacle. I assume the cause of the commotion was the tussle finding its way to the ground, startling the chickens. When I realized what was going on my daughter and I crept outside to watch. The wo…

love this story! you also have a very nice and descriptive writing style.
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