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Paris hails victory over short-stay rents

bbc.co.uk

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Re: Paris hails victory over short-stay rents

#151

Post by gridlockd »

stingraycharles wrote: post #43
joshgev wrote: post #20

I understand that this definitely helps some vested interests (hotel industry, for instance), but the issue transcends a discussion of hotels vs. Airbnb and the cost of housing. I've had the displeasure of living in an apartment building that was used partially for long-term tenants (of which I was one) and short-term Airbnb guests. The experience was terrible. Constant noise, incredibly inconsiderate people leaving…

This type is of stuff is why cities have zoning, and I feel like all this Airbnb discussion is just people realizing why things were like they were. As a tourist who occasionally used Airbnb myself, of course I enjoy it but it’s not like I couldn’t enjoy a hotel. I completely understand why it’s bad for communities. There must be some middle ground to be reached here, but when in doubt, I would err on the side of com…

I think this talk of "community" is a bunch of hogwash. People living in cities don't have communities, they barely know each other.

What they are really protesting is being unable to afford rising rent, which is caused by a lack of apartments, which is somewhat exacerbated by Airbnb, but zoning laws have a far bigger impact.

The same people who can't afford the rent anymore wouldn't want to live in (or next to) a highrise though, so the zoning laws still make sense.

Re: Paris hails victory over short-stay rents

#152

Post by leetcrew »

notyourwork wrote: post #139
leetcrew wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Once we had enough owners to vote on new bylaws we reduced short term rentals dramatically. From do as you want, to 30 days, and now 6 months. is this really a good thing? once you start banning rentals in the 1-6 month range, you are no longer just targeting tourists. you're also hurting folks without stable jobs who can't commit to a typical lease length.

How many are in this category though? It seems like a minority case and any decent job which may require relocation or unpredictable permanence offers moving assistance that handles breaking leases.

> It seems like a minority case and any decent job which may require relocation or unpredictable permanence offers moving assistance that handles breaking leases.

first of all, this is pretty uncommon outside of relatively high-paying professional gigs. the average person's idea of a "decent job" is probably quite different from mine or yours. also not all leases have a buy-out clause. you might be on the hook for the entire remaining term of the lease, which, on the margin, can change a new employer's willingness to pay. I actually just had this situation with my previous roommate. we had just signed a new one-year lease when he got an offer. they almost declined to pay out his share of 11 months' rent when they learned there was no buyout clause. this was a tech company hiring him as an SWE.

I don't know what share of short-term renters are doing it out of necessity, but I do have several friends that are in this position. I'll use one of them as an example. he dropped out of school with about a year's worth of credits left, so most white-collar positions are not on the table for him. he currently works in a restaurant, but he has a worsening health condition that makes this a short term option at best. he's trying to get into a trade that would be at least a little better for his health, but not having a lot of luck at the moment. basically he needs to be ready to get up and go at a moments notice to anywhere he can find better work.

Re: Paris hails victory over short-stay rents

#153

Post by joshgev »

kyleblarson wrote: post #73
joshgev wrote: post #20

I understand that this definitely helps some vested interests (hotel industry, for instance), but the issue transcends a discussion of hotels vs. Airbnb and the cost of housing. I've had the displeasure of living in an apartment building that was used partially for long-term tenants (of which I was one) and short-term Airbnb guests. The experience was terrible. Constant noise, incredibly inconsiderate people leaving…

You are free to move elsewhere.

Indeed we did, which helps strengthen my point that Airbnb disrupts communities. I put almost a year into living there, trying to get to know my neighbors, establishing relationships with local store owners and employees, etc. I've now left, so now the community has one fewer people in it that actually gave a shit about the place.

Re: Paris hails victory over short-stay rents

#154

Post by rsynnott »

legitster wrote: post #18

Airbnb listings are associated with a fairly small but noticeable increase in rents: https://hbr.org/2019/04/research-when-airbnb-listings-in-a-c... But the question I always wonder is what's so special about hotels that they get to build dozens or hundreds of apartments but don't have to put them on the market? It seems like there is a lot of problems baked into zoning, and it doesn't seem fair to punish Airbnb owne…

> But the question I always wonder is what's so special about hotels that they get to build dozens or hundreds of apartments but don't have to put them on the market?

Your average hotel room (at least in a large city) is much smaller than anything that would be permitted as a habitable apartment in most jurisdictions. The hotel also insulates residents from tourists, and hotels often have planning constraints intended to further reduce tourist nuisance (for instance, they may not be allowed have externally facing balconies).

And planning authorities can consider local needs; if you give planning for an apartment block you expect it to be used for housing, if you give planning for a hotel (or aparthotel) you expect it to be used for tourism. Airbnbs tend to break that model a bit.

Re: Paris hails victory over short-stay rents

#155

Post by dalbasal »

xphilter wrote: post #6
dalbasal wrote: post #3

I don't fall strongly on either side of these debates, but I'm kind of against the debate as a whole. I just don't think that trade offs between short stay rentals, even airbnb hotels, and rental housing has much of a win in it for renters even if advocates get everything they want. It seems like a marginal, symbolic issue that sucks up a lot of attention without the potential for meaningful results. Are bans on shor…

It’s not just housing prices. It’s community and neighborhood. People want to live in a neighborhood with actual people, not a decentralized hotel. I say this as someone who has done short term rentals in Paris—it was nice for me, but I can see how annoying it must be for residents.

I understand, but in context, I feel this supports rather than negates my original post.

I understand the "decentralized hotel" problem. But, this seems to come up with fiery enthusiasm in the context of housing affordability constantly. Ultimately, affordability is a bigger problem then neighborhood character.

No one gets this fired up about sidewalks, business licensing, speed limits, parking and everything else that makes up neighborhood character.

Re: Paris hails victory over short-stay rents

#156

Post by salmonfamine »

vertis wrote: post #49
joshgev wrote: post #20

I understand that this definitely helps some vested interests (hotel industry, for instance), but the issue transcends a discussion of hotels vs. Airbnb and the cost of housing. I've had the displeasure of living in an apartment building that was used partially for long-term tenants (of which I was one) and short-term Airbnb guests. The experience was terrible. Constant noise, incredibly inconsiderate people leaving…

As a digital nomad I live my life in AirBnBs (with the exception of the occasional hotel and housesit). Over the last 2 years I have stayed in ~20-30 AirBnBs in Asia and Europe (we were going to do the Americas this year...alas). Without AirBnB I don't know how we would be able to live as digital nomads. Hotels are not acceptable because they lack kitchens and laundries (and laptop friendly workspaces). I understand…

"To be a mass tourist, for me, is to become a pure late-date American: alien, ignorant, greedy for something you cannot ever have, disappointed in a way you can never admit. It is to spoil, by way of sheer ontology, the very unspoiledness you are there to experience, It is to impose yourself on places that in all non-economic ways would be better, realer, without you. It is, in lines and gridlock and transaction after transaction, to confront a dimension of yourself that is as inescapable as it is painful: As a tourist, you become economically significant but existentially loathsome, an insect on a dead thing."

The trap with AirBnb and urban STR's is the idea that you can live like a native, but the truth is you're not fooling anyone but yourself.

-DFW

Re: Paris hails victory over short-stay rents

#157

Post by ianmobbs »

leetcrew wrote: post #112
yardie wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I own in a building that used to be rampant with AirBnb rentals. Once we had enough owners to vote on new bylaws we reduced short term rentals dramatically. From do as you want, to 30 days, and now 6 months. I used to not mind Airbnb and was a long time proponent. But the edge cases aren't even edge cases anymore. Just within the last few days one of the more popular buildings in our neighborhood had a shooting. The…

> Once we had enough owners to vote on new bylaws we reduced short term rentals dramatically. From do as you want, to 30 days, and now 6 months. is this really a good thing? once you start banning rentals in the 1-6 month range, you are no longer just targeting tourists. you're also hurting folks without stable jobs who can't commit to a typical lease length.

AirBNB did not invent short-term rentals.

Re: Paris hails victory over short-stay rents

#158

Post by gridlockd »

NicolasGorden wrote: post #145
joshgev wrote: post #20

I understand that this definitely helps some vested interests (hotel industry, for instance), but the issue transcends a discussion of hotels vs. Airbnb and the cost of housing. I've had the displeasure of living in an apartment building that was used partially for long-term tenants (of which I was one) and short-term Airbnb guests. The experience was terrible. Constant noise, incredibly inconsiderate people leaving…

I live in a tourist town and have lived in different tourist towns my whole life (even in other countries) so I'm quite well acquainted with the issues that AirBNB has. Overall, I think it's not a new thing to AirBNB. I think it's a NIMBY vs YIMBY thing. Established players in any community have little desire for expansion. Non-established players in any community have greater incentive to want to see expansion. For…

> We can't eat our pie and have it at the same time.

We can still talk about the pie, how good the pie is, that they don't make pie like this anymore - anything to distract from the fact that the pie has long been eaten.

Re: Paris hails victory over short-stay rents

#159

Post by rsynnott »

lhnz wrote: post #9

I wonder if this has a positive or negative effect on tourism within Paris?

Possibly it has a mild negative effect, but it's positive for practically everyone who _lives_ in Paris. Cities are generally predominantly places for people to live and work, not theme parks for tourists.

Re: Paris hails victory over short-stay rents

#160

Post by MrPowers »

q3k wrote: post #78
vertis wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a digital nomad I live my life in AirBnBs (with the exception of the occasional hotel and housesit). Over the last 2 years I have stayed in ~20-30 AirBnBs in Asia and Europe (we were going to do the Americas this year...alas). Without AirBnB I don't know how we would be able to live as digital nomads. Hotels are not acceptable because they lack kitchens and laundries (and laptop friendly workspaces). I understand…

> I would love to know why people are downvoting? I didn't downvote, but your post seems to come from a place of privilege. It puts your comfortable, posh 'digital nomad' touristy lifestyle as something that is worth sacrificing others' lives for. Oh no, you might have to stay in a hotel or long-stay vacation home instead of a short-term rental. Imagine the discomfort. To me, if you visit some place, you do as the lo…

I'm conflicted on this one and can see both sides. The "if you visit some place, you do as the locals wish" is a bit of a slippery slope.

It's hard to understand the nuances of a culture. I've been living in Colombia for 5 years. It took me a couple years to understand the subtleties of Paisa Spanish and another year to really start understanding the culture. Visitors need years to understand what the locals want. And no, you can't simply ask them what they want... that doesn't work in indirect communication / "que pena" cultures.

Flipping this around, I'm from New York and certainly don't want tourists to do what I want when they're in my home town. They can do whatever they want.

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