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Paris hails victory over short-stay rents

bbc.co.uk

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Re: Paris hails victory over short-stay rents

#141

Post by rsynnott »

vertis wrote: post #49
joshgev wrote: post #20

I understand that this definitely helps some vested interests (hotel industry, for instance), but the issue transcends a discussion of hotels vs. Airbnb and the cost of housing. I've had the displeasure of living in an apartment building that was used partially for long-term tenants (of which I was one) and short-term Airbnb guests. The experience was terrible. Constant noise, incredibly inconsiderate people leaving…

As a digital nomad I live my life in AirBnBs (with the exception of the occasional hotel and housesit). Over the last 2 years I have stayed in ~20-30 AirBnBs in Asia and Europe (we were going to do the Americas this year...alas). Without AirBnB I don't know how we would be able to live as digital nomads. Hotels are not acceptable because they lack kitchens and laundries (and laptop friendly workspaces). I understand…

> Hotels are not acceptable because they lack kitchens and laundries (and laptop friendly workspaces).

You're looking for an aparthotel (generally purpose-built building with special planning designed for this use-case). Common in many European cities, at least.

Re: Paris hails victory over short-stay rents

#142

Post by MrPowers »

cblconfederate wrote: post #97

This doesnt seem to be controversial. And TBH i believe the airbnb-airlines-instagram tourism boom party is over. Post covid, with rising unemployment, remote work, and relocation to more livable places, people aren't going to be chasing cheap flights for more selfies.

I'm not sure the tourism boom is over. Addressing your specific points:

* rising unemployment - overall employment is falling, but most digital nomad jobs haven't been impacted * remote work - this makes it easier to digital nomad (e.g. a NYC dweller that travels for the winter) * relocation to more livable places - Suppose you relocate from SF to a more "livable" place like Tucson, not sure that'll reduce demand to go to places like Brazil, Europe

I'm typing these words in the Medellin airport. Travelling sucks now. If travelling stays this crappy, then it's likely people will move around less.

Re: Paris hails victory over short-stay rents

#143

Post by cool_dude85 »

swarnie_ wrote: post #88
aloukissas wrote: post #33

Glad to see this. The same thing (to a worse degree) has happened in Athens, where the supply of rental units has diminished to more than 1/3 (with average rents going 2-3x in a 1-2 year period), as landlords converted units to short-term rentals. This is particularly touchy for Greece, as tourism accounts for 25%+ of GDP, so tourist-friendly regulation has a big impact. OTOH, it's a country with one of the lowest av…

I came to Athens last summer and spent 4 nights in the city staying in an AirBnB style rent. I thought it would be better doing this than giving my money to a generic international hotel chain but you disagree apparently. I find your solution unworkable personally. When I travel I like to have somewhere private I can come back to after a long day, the coach surfing model doesn't appeal to couples.

Sorry, can't afford your rent? I find your solution - to raise costs a bit for me, to be unworkable.

Re: Paris hails victory over short-stay rents

#144

Post by skor »

soperj wrote: post #104
stingraycharles wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This type is of stuff is why cities have zoning, and I feel like all this Airbnb discussion is just people realizing why things were like they were. As a tourist who occasionally used Airbnb myself, of course I enjoy it but it’s not like I couldn’t enjoy a hotel. I completely understand why it’s bad for communities. There must be some middle ground to be reached here, but when in doubt, I would err on the side of com…

I guess as a tourist with a family, it's completely different. Hotels suck for small kids. Having a room with a door that can close, and a space outside is such a massively different experience than a hotel room.

Thankfully more hotels have realized this and seen where ABB was winning. At least around western Europe it is ever more common to have kitchen, baby cots, suites without dangerous staircases, patios/gardens/baby-pools etc. Once kids are >=5, they can sit and dine in restaurants, enjoy buffets, etc, so the classic hotels become comfortable again.

Re: Paris hails victory over short-stay rents

#145

Post by NicolasGorden »

joshgev wrote: post #20

I understand that this definitely helps some vested interests (hotel industry, for instance), but the issue transcends a discussion of hotels vs. Airbnb and the cost of housing. I've had the displeasure of living in an apartment building that was used partially for long-term tenants (of which I was one) and short-term Airbnb guests. The experience was terrible. Constant noise, incredibly inconsiderate people leaving…

I live in a tourist town and have lived in different tourist towns my whole life (even in other countries) so I'm quite well acquainted with the issues that AirBNB has. Overall, I think it's not a new thing to AirBNB.

I think it's a NIMBY vs YIMBY thing.

Established players in any community have little desire for expansion.

Non-established players in any community have greater incentive to want to see expansion. For the most part, the non established are seeking to become established by filling the niches created by expansion.

Expansion will always have a cost, as well as a benefit. These two are un-evenly distributed and cause tension.

Overall, at least where I live, I know that removing vacation rentals would decrease tourism. As we have seen with COVID, less tourism in a tourist town and city budgets are restricted, services cut and business close. I like to see my little city vibrant and economically healthy, so I support YIMBY projects, even with their necessary negatives. That means I have to put up with unruly-annoying people.

We can't eat our pie and have it at the same time.

Re: Paris hails victory over short-stay rents

#146

Post by ck425 »

swarnie_ wrote: post #88
aloukissas wrote: post #33

Glad to see this. The same thing (to a worse degree) has happened in Athens, where the supply of rental units has diminished to more than 1/3 (with average rents going 2-3x in a 1-2 year period), as landlords converted units to short-term rentals. This is particularly touchy for Greece, as tourism accounts for 25%+ of GDP, so tourist-friendly regulation has a big impact. OTOH, it's a country with one of the lowest av…

I came to Athens last summer and spent 4 nights in the city staying in an AirBnB style rent. I thought it would be better doing this than giving my money to a generic international hotel chain but you disagree apparently. I find your solution unworkable personally. When I travel I like to have somewhere private I can come back to after a long day, the coach surfing model doesn't appeal to couples.

Then get a hotel. While tourism may be important and economic interests of local residents need to come first and AirBnb and it's like are harming local residents.

Re: Paris hails victory over short-stay rents

#147

Post by munchbunny »

gherkinnn wrote: post #95
vertis wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a digital nomad I live my life in AirBnBs (with the exception of the occasional hotel and housesit). Over the last 2 years I have stayed in ~20-30 AirBnBs in Asia and Europe (we were going to do the Americas this year...alas). Without AirBnB I don't know how we would be able to live as digital nomads. Hotels are not acceptable because they lack kitchens and laundries (and laptop friendly workspaces). I understand…

> But one of the things the we value as digital nomads is living as the locals live (or as close as possible). Nah, mate. Nomads living like locals is an oxymoron. It doesn’t come close. I wish Airbnb-ers would stop touting this. You haven’t seen restaurants come and go. You don’t know the intricacies of local culture and etiquette. If you do speak the language, you don’t speak the lingo. You have never fought with t…

You haven’t seen restaurants come and go. You don’t know the intricacies of local culture and etiquette. If you do speak the language, you don’t speak the lingo. You have never fought with the local municipality over some triviality. You’ve never voted in local elections. There’s no investment from your side. You have no roots in that place. You have no part in that place’s soul and I doubt it has a place in yours. By definition it’s not your home.

This sounds like gatekeeping to me. That's almost by definition what an immigrant's life is like until they naturalize, but I'd never tell an immigrant that this place isn't their home.

Re: Paris hails victory over short-stay rents

#148

Post by em-bee »

gherkinnn wrote: post #95
vertis wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a digital nomad I live my life in AirBnBs (with the exception of the occasional hotel and housesit). Over the last 2 years I have stayed in ~20-30 AirBnBs in Asia and Europe (we were going to do the Americas this year...alas). Without AirBnB I don't know how we would be able to live as digital nomads. Hotels are not acceptable because they lack kitchens and laundries (and laptop friendly workspaces). I understand…

> But one of the things the we value as digital nomads is living as the locals live (or as close as possible). Nah, mate. Nomads living like locals is an oxymoron. It doesn’t come close. I wish Airbnb-ers would stop touting this. You haven’t seen restaurants come and go. You don’t know the intricacies of local culture and etiquette. If you do speak the language, you don’t speak the lingo. You have never fought with t…

this sounds like the kind of attitude that makes it hard for any newcomer to settle in a different city or country. how many years does it take before my family is accepted as a local and not treated like an outsider? how long does it take to grow new roots?

the reality is for many that point is never reached. in some places, if you are not born there you are not accepted as a local.

i am not talking about digital nomands, but families with children who move because of a job or because of their kids school or other personal reasons. my family was forced to move 3 times in the past two years, and not because we didn't intend to stay, but because we couldn't.

a friend of mine tried to run a business in a german city and had to give up because the local old boys club would prevent him from getting customers.

this is the attitude that xenophobia is rooted in.

sure, someone staying only for a few days is a tourist, no matter how you turn it, but if someone staying for a few months is still treated like a tourist, then i'd consider that a problem.

Re: Paris hails victory over short-stay rents

#149

Post by mdorazio »

leetcrew wrote: post #112
yardie wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I own in a building that used to be rampant with AirBnb rentals. Once we had enough owners to vote on new bylaws we reduced short term rentals dramatically. From do as you want, to 30 days, and now 6 months. I used to not mind Airbnb and was a long time proponent. But the edge cases aren't even edge cases anymore. Just within the last few days one of the more popular buildings in our neighborhood had a shooting. The…

> Once we had enough owners to vote on new bylaws we reduced short term rentals dramatically. From do as you want, to 30 days, and now 6 months. is this really a good thing? once you start banning rentals in the 1-6 month range, you are no longer just targeting tourists. you're also hurting folks without stable jobs who can't commit to a typical lease length.

There are already extended stay hotels serving this market. I've used them myself several times for work that only lasted a couple months and they were fine.

Re: Paris hails victory over short-stay rents

#150

Post by cool_dude85 »

kofejnik wrote: post #133
aloukissas wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unfortunately, most of the owners of Airbnb and other short-term rentals in Greece are non-Greek citizens who got a "golden passport" in the recent years, buying off a huge chunk of the apartment inventory in Athens and elsewhere. Re: couch-surfing -- probably a bad metaphor on my end. I meant the "rent a room in a house" model that Airbnb offers.

> Unfortunately, most of the owners of Airbnb and other short-term rentals in Greece are non-Greek citizens who got a "golden passport" in the recent years, buying off a huge chunk of the apartment inventory in Athens and elsewhere. why is this unfortunate? I thought investment is good for economy?

No wonder you hear so much cheering from Skid Row whenever the stock market has a big day. "Things are looking good for GDP growth!" they shout, from their tents.
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