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Why books don't work (2019)

andymatuschak.org

111–120 of 221 posts

Re: Why books don't work (2019)

#111
post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agree. I found Thinking, Fast and Slow painfully biased

Read older books. I became excited with Jordan Peterson's first videos and bought his book "12 rules" when it came out. I skimmed it and... I'm literally using it as a footrest. Peterson is a powerful speaker but has little content. Older books: (a) Have stood the test of time. (b) Typically arose in a time where intellectual celebrity fermented in core intellectual circles first, and only then popularized. Kahneman…

I too was enamored by Peterson when he first came to prominence, but he quickly lost steam for me. I've read some of his influences, and they're much more interesting.

Re: Why books don't work (2019)

#112
Just look at the bibliography of any book, it is usually more than 6. So that's how many books you have to read on average to remember what you read, let alone deeply understand the material. The whole idea of trying to remember and understand from one reading is a fallacy. The best thing is to re-read the book again or read multiple books on the same subject.

Re: Why books don't work (2019)

#113
post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can't comment on the others, but I'm a trained historian, and hating Guns, Germs, and Steel is probably the single thing that unites our field. It's vastly oversimplified, and gives anyone who reads it the idea that they understand the major forces shaping world history while ignoring most of the things that historians agree are more important than environmental determinism in that process.

Do you have an alternative book (or list of) which you'd recommend instead?

I always recommend Charles Mann's 1491 as the antidote to Guns, Germs, and Steel. (Although note that this focuses entirely on pre-Columbian America.)

Re: Why books don't work (2019)

#114
post #58

Jonathan Blow recently streamed a talk called 'Video Games and the Future of Education'[0] that makes similar arguments. He discusses various tools we have to transmit knowledge from teacher to student and argues that games really shine as away to trick people into 'learning by doing'. He's sharply critical of existing educational games and really lays into 'gamification' as a concept. The talk certainly left me hear…

Scrolled through to see if anyone mentioned video games before writing up my own comment, and pleasantly surprised to see Jonathan Blow explicitly mentioned!

As a counterpoint to the article which is arguing that Books and lectures don't have a theory of learning and assimilation of information, I think that Video Games as a medium often do. Most games have tutorials or instructions on how to play the game, often introducing novel or complex concepts to the audience that are required to be understood before the work can be enjoyed.

More specifically, I find that exploration and puzzle games tend to exemplify this more than most. They introduce one concept at a time, demonstrate it, allow exploration and 'play' of the concept and perhaps even test the understanding of it before progression is allowed. They also allow for more interesting corollaries and combinations of rules to be presented to the player which may be intriguing, surprising or, appropriately, puzzling.

And of all the puzzle games, it is Jonathan Blow's game 'The Witness' that I feel exemplifies this the best. Having also listened to his commentaries and watched his talks I know that this isn't an accident. In many ways the game itself is a contemplation on knowledge transfer, information assimilation and wordless communication of ideas. This early video [0] shows him talking through the first 10 minutes of the game and how these principles apply to the first two sets of puzzle and the first 'boss' puzzle.

His talk from your comment is also excellent, but I think it's worth highlighting that Blow very much says that video games are a complement to current resources rather than a replacement (as the title might suggest). Video Games allow for a different way to play with certain types of idea that allows for them to be understood on a deeper or more nuanced level. This doesn't necessarily apply to all types of knowledge.

I would also suggest the work of Bret Victor [1], who has some excellent essays and talks on the subject of learning, especially around Maths.

Also honorary mentions to Acko [2] and NCase [3] who create excellent explorables, which I think hint at what a fusion of classroom learning and video games might look like.

[0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rDSrYiheVow

[1] http://worrydream.com/LadderOfAbstraction/

[2] https://acko.net/blog/how-to-fold-a-julia-fractal/

[3] https://ncase.me/trust/

Re: Why books don't work (2019)

#115

For the given examples: The Selfish Gene; Thinking, Fast and Slow; Guns, Germs, and Steel, there is another issue not covered in the article: the books are philosophical interpretations of some facts the author chose to support their theories. Even more so, some of those facts and studies have been since debunked. So for these examples it is my opinion that it's not a case of books not working, but of very healthy br…

I can't comment on the others, but I'm a trained historian, and hating Guns, Germs, and Steel is probably the single thing that unites our field. It's vastly oversimplified, and gives anyone who reads it the idea that they understand the major forces shaping world history while ignoring most of the things that historians agree are more important than environmental determinism in that process.

[deleted]

Re: Why books don't work (2019)

#116

I don't find this line of thinking to be compelling at all, unless you make certain assumptions that I don't agree with. For one, you'd have to assume that the "big idea" of a book is that you read it once, like a novel, and should have great recall of a large body of details / minutia from said book. IMO, it just "doesn't work like that." If you want to learn from a book, you have to play a more active role. Persona…

I agree with many of your takes, but I do think reading a book like a novel can give you even more than a vague memory. I think there is a lot more "dark memory" that can be triggered by conversation or the right context. I also think we translate a lot of the information we read so it integrates with our own understanding or context. For example, I think I better understand why the US responded to COVID like it did…

I agree with many of your takes, but I do think reading a book like a novel can give you even more than a vague memory.

I actually agree with that. I think it depends on the nature of the material, how much else you already know about the subject, your intention in reading the book, etc. I was being a little overly general in phrasing it in terms of only walking away with "a vague memory".

Re: Why books don't work (2019)

#117

I don't find this line of thinking to be compelling at all, unless you make certain assumptions that I don't agree with. For one, you'd have to assume that the "big idea" of a book is that you read it once, like a novel, and should have great recall of a large body of details / minutia from said book. IMO, it just "doesn't work like that." If you want to learn from a book, you have to play a more active role. Persona…

Why shouldn't we have great recall of the details of books we read? All of the things you describe about actively engaging with the works you read are obviously correct (taking notes, summarising main points etc.). But often, I (and I dare say most people) fail to follow up with them effectively. As I see it, the author's question is: can we create a new medium which affords such active engagement with the works we read more effectively? Incorporating spaced repetition is a very good first step.

Re: Why books don't work (2019)

#118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, this stood out to me when I read the article. The examples he gives are all pop-science, all take some thesis and making a story from it that'll be interesting to a general audience. I feel like he's looking at this through the prism of his speciality (producing interactive learning materials), and by doing that has missed the point a little bit. He's looking a genre of books at if they're a different thing to w…

"The examples he gives are all pop-science" I don't think that's true of The Selfish Gene (and even more so for its successor, The Extended Phenotype, as one can tell just from the title). It seems to me to be a serious work on evolutionary biology.

It's "pop science" in the sense that he's taking academic work and making it palatable to a general audience, minus the rigor and complexity. His sources were books like Fisher's Genetical Theory of Natural Selection and papers by WD Hamilton.

It's not that it isn't serious. Pop science doesn't have to be BS. But it often risks conveying to readers that they have a better grounding than they actually have, which The Selfish Gene has also done. Pop science books are good ways to attract young readers to the sciences and to keep older readers engaged in it, but they are not in and of themselves contributions to the field.

Re: Why books don't work (2019)

#119

I don't find this line of thinking to be compelling at all, unless you make certain assumptions that I don't agree with. For one, you'd have to assume that the "big idea" of a book is that you read it once, like a novel, and should have great recall of a large body of details / minutia from said book. IMO, it just "doesn't work like that." If you want to learn from a book, you have to play a more active role. Persona…

> If you want to learn from a book, you have to play a more active role.

The whole point of TFA is precisely this, combined with questions about how books might be better structured to facilitate a more active role.

Re: Why books don't work (2019)

#120
Books rarely teach a subject to a person. It's more about shaping the concept in their mind.

Let's take a book that shaped how I think about the media: "The Powers that Be" by David Halberstam. It's a tome of a book, clocking in at over 700 pages. It is a history and analysis of American media in the 20th century. I cannot recite many anecdotes or facts from it - although it's entirely possible, maybe even likely, that facts and anecdotes related to the media I know are from that book, I just have forgotten that. But it shaped how I think about the media, its various mediums, the power it has, and in particular, its influence on, and relationship with, politics. This "shaping" thing is both nebulous but critical to how we think and understand the world.

Let's take yet another example: the astrophysics courses I took in undergrad. Two semester's worth: one semester on stars, and one semester on everything else in the universe. (Quoth my professor: "And that's reflective of our understanding.") I used to be able to narrate all of the steps of a main sequence star. I no longer can. I can get close, and I can throw out phrases like "hydrostatic equilibrium", but I have forgotten so much from those courses. It's a year of learning! But that is not a waste. My understanding of our solar system, galaxy and universe were shaped by this course, so that I at least can have an intuitive understanding of what we know. This influences how I think about these things, and it influences how I interact with new information about these things.

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