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Why books don't work (2019)

andymatuschak.org

81–90 of 221 posts

Re: Why books don't work (2019)

#81
post #66

The very premise of this article shows how demented Western culture has become. The attitude of, “I invested 15-20 hours reading this book and, boohoo, I’m not a subject matter expert on the book’s topic” is absolutely insane. It takes a decade of serious work to really get a strong handle on a topic. Books aren’t supposed to teach you something to know, they’re meant to teach you how much you don’t know. Hopefully f…

I agree. The anti-book sentiment has felt quite strong lately, and this article is another example. I think people feel subconsciously guilty that they do not read more. It is thus easier to dismiss books than to acknowledge the fact that most attention spans have been reduced the the granularity of a comment thread. We are all victims to this. Reading a book takes more effort than it used to. I fear that most people…

I think that post comes from the same place as comments demanding that longer form articles come with a paragraph abstract and that books should be summarized in a few pages. Because their valuable time is consumed with writing new ad-tech code or whatever. It's an efficiency above all else mindset.

Re: Why books don't work (2019)

#82
post #77
post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What does this have to do with "Western" culture?

What's your point? Are you trying to argue that the East-Coast culture of New York is similarly to blame?

GP didn't specify, but I assume they meant the global West in general and not just the West-Coast.

Re: Why books don't work (2019)

#83

For the given examples: The Selfish Gene; Thinking, Fast and Slow; Guns, Germs, and Steel, there is another issue not covered in the article: the books are philosophical interpretations of some facts the author chose to support their theories. Even more so, some of those facts and studies have been since debunked. So for these examples it is my opinion that it's not a case of books not working, but of very healthy br…

Yes, this stood out to me when I read the article. The examples he gives are all pop-science, all take some thesis and making a story from it that'll be interesting to a general audience. I feel like he's looking at this through the prism of his speciality (producing interactive learning materials), and by doing that has missed the point a little bit. He's looking a genre of books at if they're a different thing to w…

"The examples he gives are all pop-science"

I don't think that's true of The Selfish Gene (and even more so for its successor, The Extended Phenotype, as one can tell just from the title). It seems to me to be a serious work on evolutionary biology.

Re: Why books don't work (2019)

#84
post #56

The author cites three mediocre pop science books and is dismayed that after a single reading, he finds himself unable to impress people at parties with his knowledge. He says those books each take "6 to 9 hours" to read. Life changing books are read over the course of...well...an entire life. I have a small handful of books that I have read dozens of times. These are books with very big, and very old, ideas. They ha…

I too am underwhelmed by the article, but I don't think it's fair to call the books he describes "mediocre pop science books". By way of reminder, they're Dawkins's The selfish gene, Kahneman's Thinking, fast and slow, and Diamond's Guns, germs and steel.

These are definitely pop science books. Like any pop science books, they can reasonably be accused of simplifying their material, favouring a particular interpretation of science that can be looked at in different ways, etc. The underlying science is (like all science) fallible too. But all this is just to say that they're pop science books. That doesn't make them mediocre pop science books, and it seems to me hard to deny that they are all unusually good pop science books.

It's not relevant for this purpose whether all the science turns out to be correct, nor whether Dawkins & Kahneman & Diamond let their own opinions obtrude too much; Matuschak's complaint isn't "I learned all this stuff and some of it turned out to be wrong", it's "I read these books and it turned out I'd learned less than I thought".

It is relevant whether the books present a nontrivial amount of content, whether they're explained clearly and engagingly, whether the ideas in them are (or were when the books were written) at least somewhat unfamiliar to nonspecialist readers. On all those counts, all three of these books do well.

So I don't think he'd have got better results by reading other less-mediocre popular science books. I also don't think the results would have been any better if he'd done the same thing with books on (say) philosophy, or history, or language. The problem is with some combination of (1) what he did and (2) what he hoped to gain from it, not with the particular books he chose.

I do agree that there is a big problem with (1) and (2). If you actually want to learn something then you need to do more than read one book on it; and reading a good book (even if it's what you call a mediocre popular science book) once will do you some good but what it does for you won't be to enable you to expound in detail on its contents at parties.

Re: Why books don't work (2019)

#85
post #66

The very premise of this article shows how demented Western culture has become. The attitude of, “I invested 15-20 hours reading this book and, boohoo, I’m not a subject matter expert on the book’s topic” is absolutely insane. It takes a decade of serious work to really get a strong handle on a topic. Books aren’t supposed to teach you something to know, they’re meant to teach you how much you don’t know. Hopefully f…

The attitude in this post is “I invested 15-20 hours reading this book and, boohoo, I don't really remember what I read”.

Re: Why books don't work (2019)

#86
Oh, books do work. Take, for example, early reading. No single book will teach a child how to read. One may reinforce letters, or a more advanced one may reinforce words, or later how they are used in sentences, then vocabulary, and so on until a point when the child has developed the skill to read unassisted. One could argue that the entire fiction genre is merely a roundabout way of reinforcing vocabulary (if one is inclined to do a cynical utilitarian take on the knowledge value they provide).

Extending from that, it seems a bit presumptuous to assume that a single book might then be able to convey all there is to any topic due to its size (compared to, say, listicles), given that reading itself is one of the most basic skills and one that - as we've seen - cannot generally be taught with a single book.

What books can do is expose you to some idea, in some form, so that you can soak up something from it and adopt it into your own mental framework. Pop culture / self-help books will often try to "sell" a central idea by showering you with stories and anecdotes (e.g. the 1-2-3 system in parenting books), but if you have the presence of mind to already understand that the examples are merely an attempt to add weight to an argument, then you can quickly summarize the meat (the "1-2-3", in this case) and think for yourself whether/when to apply that technique, vs other techniques that you might learn elsewhere.

There's a slippery slope in terms of how many core ideas one may pack in a book, vs how many supporting arguments one may add around the core idea. Add too many core ideas and you get something like a dry university textbook. Add too little, and you get books like Malcolm Gladwell. Mind you, having a lot of "frills" doesn't necessarily make a book bad. For example, many consider Godel, Escher, Bach to be a great read, even though [spoiler] it can be promptly summarized as an exploration on occurrences of recursiveness (through very colorful allegory). The beauty of GEB is that the supporting stories themselves give you a glimpse of new domains to explore.

At the end of the day, just like a library is a collection of disparate nuggets of human knowledge and no one's expected to uniformly learn all of it, books are but pieces of an ecosystem, with various degrees of "completeness" (as far as their core subjects go) and various degrees of flair; what one chooses to read or skim, and what they take away individually from each book is what the relationship between humans and books are all about.

Re: Why books don't work (2019)

#87
It seems like some authors get over-ambitious about actually teaching the material. But as a reader, often I don't care enough to do the exercises, because I'm just exploring, and I don't know if I'll come back this way again. I haven't made a commitment to actually learn the subject yet. I just want to know the layout of the landscape and I'll come back to it if I actually need to know it.

In particular, I think hardly anyone really needs to know quantum mechanics well enough to do homework?

It seems like before testing effectiveness, you need to determine what subset of your audience shares the goals you assume. Often, it's only going to be a small fraction.

Re: Why books don't work (2019)

#89
post #85
post #66

The very premise of this article shows how demented Western culture has become. The attitude of, “I invested 15-20 hours reading this book and, boohoo, I’m not a subject matter expert on the book’s topic” is absolutely insane. It takes a decade of serious work to really get a strong handle on a topic. Books aren’t supposed to teach you something to know, they’re meant to teach you how much you don’t know. Hopefully f…

The attitude in this post is “I invested 15-20 hours reading this book and, boohoo, I don't really remember what I read”.

> Often things go well at first. I’ll feel I can sketch the basic claims, paint the surface; but when someone asks a basic probing question, the edifice instantly collapse

That to me doesn't sound like someone complaining about not remembering what they read, but someone complaining that they can't backup the arguments that they now consider their own. Books aren't meant to transfer the author's knowledge to the reader they're meant to offer an abstraction of the author's knowledge to the reader.

The writer of this post has no trouble remembering the abstraction, but without more effort the abstraction cannot be backed up.

In order to really make knowledge your own you have to do serious work. You can't just read one book.

Re: Why books don't work (2019)

#90
I often find myself really bad at remembering what I read in a book or blog post or heard in a lecture on youtube or Coursera beyond the larger point, so I'd agree with the author at least that far.

However, when a question is raised relating to something I read, eor a point is stated that conflicts with something that I read, I usually find I can remember where I read about it. Even if I didn't internalize the idea I can look it up pretty easily, and 90% of the time being able to look up something is good enough. So I think whether books work depends on your goal: is it to perfectly internalize something, or to be able to have something you know you can refer to later?

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