I no longer build software • Hacker News Board

Re: I no longer build software

#601

Post by burntoutfire » Mon, Sep 21, 2020, 4:53 PM UTC

Accujack wrote: post #589

aarongough wrote: post #460

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unfortunately I agree with this. A great quote I saw a while ago: “The best minds of my generation are thinking about how to make people click ads.” –Jeff Hammerbacher Every paying software job I've ever had was in some way involved getting people to click on ads. Either directly making a product where ad click rate is a measured metric, or products that helped people make products where clicking on ads was a metric.…

It's neither rare or difficult, exactly. The problem is how you look for the job. Most corporations in the US that are for profit aren't about doing good, they're about making money, and publicly held corporations are even legally encouraged by US law to put the shareholders' bottom line first and foremost. Non profits can care a lot more, but they generally (at least the ones that exist not) don't focus on something…

> I think an idea that hasn't really been tried yet is building a non profit for software... not fitting a non profit base to an existing package, but building a corporation that is made to produce software for the public good.

Mozilla? Unfortunately, they weren't successful at creating new things of value (with maybe Rust being the exception).

Re: I no longer build software

#602

Post by ditonal » Mon, Sep 21, 2020, 4:53 PM UTC

thomasfromcdnjs wrote: post #433

cpursley wrote: post #232

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your overall tone is negative and elitist. Thee $300 supermarket bike (I have one and put over 40 miles on it weekly and it's help up fine for four years) provides access to folks who otherwise can't afford the fancy $1,500 aluminium/carbon machines. Fancy bikes are still getting made and even getting better. Newly rich kid or VC funded startups distributes money from wealthy people to an every growing software indus…

Yeah this doesn't deserve the downvotes. If you don't like rich kids, don't work for them.

That's fair, but before I spent a lot of time in industry, I thought most tech entrepreneurs were genius engineer/business types.

I was shocked that a LOT of startup founders are well-connected rich kids who have no skills or ability to lead a tech company. I learned that, while saying that you have a huge trust fund isn't very cool, saying that you're a tech entrepreneur CEO is perceived as cool. So the rich family uses their connections to raise a few million (often indirectly) and suddenly the kid is an "entrepreneur", despite lacking any relevant skill sets. It's not like there's any expectation for these companies to make a profit anyway.

Yes, you can avoid these companies, but it's worth warning younger engineers that this is maybe 50% of tech startups. It's more of a problem with NYC based companies than SF based companies (as NYC has more old money and less emphasis on tech companies actually building real tech) but I've seen it in both cities.

Re: I no longer build software

#603

Post by throwaways885 » Mon, Sep 21, 2020, 4:56 PM UTC

aarongough wrote: post #460

jlangenauer wrote: post #278

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you are right to say that the methods are vastly improved, but the ends to which those methods are applied have become ever more uninteresting (for a lot of people), and often morally suspect. We have built exquisite tools, but we use them to extract profit, to manipulate behaviour and often for no discernable purpose at all. Programming has become joyless. There are ever-shrinking spaces where a developer ge…

Unfortunately I agree with this. A great quote I saw a while ago: “The best minds of my generation are thinking about how to make people click ads.” –Jeff Hammerbacher Every paying software job I've ever had was in some way involved getting people to click on ads. Either directly making a product where ad click rate is a measured metric, or products that helped people make products where clicking on ads was a metric.…

Ads are only the way of making money, or are you saying it only matters what the end result is? It's possible to sell ads and also do good with the work.

Re: I no longer build software

#604

Post by nescioquid » Mon, Sep 21, 2020, 4:57 PM UTC

vikramkr wrote: post #527

nescioquid wrote: post #497

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Reading this litany of technologically-enabled consumer achievements, I thought of David Graeber who visited the disappointment we sometimes feel for how things actually went from mid-century to now. "[...]Where, in short, are the flying cars? Where are the force fields, tractor beams, teleportation pods, antigravity sleds, tricorders, immortality drugs, colonies on Mars, and all the other technological wonders any c…

I think its nonsensical to condemn the rate of progress because we didn't achieve a vision of science fantasy grounded in what people thought in the 1950s. A lot of those ideas are "thing that exists, but more magic." We have helicopters, but it turns out zoom calls work just as good to meet people, without the air traffic control nightmare. We have the internet at our fingers, an advance so monumental that its nearl…

> its nonsensical to condemn the rate of progress because we didn't achieve a vision of science fantasy grounded in what people thought in the 1950s

That wasn't really the claim. The idea is that the ends of technology have been chosen by corporations, rather than what would have been most generally useful to humankind. Hardly an earth-shattering observation.

Re: I no longer build software

#605

Post by agumonkey » Mon, Sep 21, 2020, 4:58 PM UTC

jlangenauer wrote: post #278

matthewmacleod wrote: post #237

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It goes without saying that your feelings are personal ones, totally valid, and nobody can really question them. I'm 20 years behind you, and I don't know what effect that will have on my views. But I don't really recognise the picture you're painting. Compared to the first steps I took as a developer about 15 years ago, almost everything about software development seems better to me. I find developing software to be…

I think you are right to say that the methods are vastly improved, but the ends to which those methods are applied have become ever more uninteresting (for a lot of people), and often morally suspect. We have built exquisite tools, but we use them to extract profit, to manipulate behaviour and often for no discernable purpose at all. Programming has become joyless. There are ever-shrinking spaces where a developer ge…

This whole dillution would be worth a book or two. How culture, economy, technology all evolved to both progress and regress oh so subtly.

Re: I no longer build software

#606

Post by lostcolony » Mon, Sep 21, 2020, 4:58 PM UTC

pbronez wrote: post #425

jlangenauer wrote: post #278

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you are right to say that the methods are vastly improved, but the ends to which those methods are applied have become ever more uninteresting (for a lot of people), and often morally suspect. We have built exquisite tools, but we use them to extract profit, to manipulate behaviour and often for no discernable purpose at all. Programming has become joyless. There are ever-shrinking spaces where a developer ge…

There are some economic theories about non-monetary compensation that try to explain this. Basically: Total Compensation = Salary + Benefits + Intangibles Those Intangibles can be things like working environment or commute, but they can also include your affinity for the organization’s mission. People are willing to take smaller salaries when they’re working on something they love & respect. It takes more money to co…

I think you need to call out bonus and RSUs/long term incentive plan here, too. Many places don't have them; talks of salary invariably leave them out, but they are what makes the FAANGs TC particularly compelling. And other companies do have them, but oftentimes it's hard to figure out which do, and for what roles (since it sometimes is dependent on seniority and perceived importance).

Re: I no longer build software

#607

Post by throwawaygh » Mon, Sep 21, 2020, 5:00 PM UTC

altdatathrow wrote: post #557

tluyben2 wrote: post #499

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not to mention that those CRUD apps have been done, exactly the same, 10000s of times before and 10000s of people are doing the same work you are doing now at this moment. Everyone thinks they are productive but value is being burned all day, every day in most companies all over the world. The level of reuse is depressing and people, especially here, firmly believe we need to use the latest frontend and backend crap…

Unfortunately there are a lot of people around these parts who have arrived at the conclusion that the only way to build software today is using all those services and more (I mean, where's kubernetes in that stack?). They will aggressively defend their role which is no longer about creating software but instead entirely about weaving together a myriad of components.

Playing with legos is easier then delivering value.

Re: I no longer build software

#608

Post by nicbou » Mon, Sep 21, 2020, 5:00 PM UTC

2mol wrote: post #459

nicbou wrote: post #75

Add me to the woodworking ex-developers. I built a website that pays the bills, and now I have a lot of time on my hands. I am finishing my first piece of furniture today. It's pretty scary to work without an undo button. The physical world isn't just instructions, but movements. A little twitch can ruin a cut. A clumsy movement can dent a piece of wood you spent an hour sanding. You truly experience the meaning of "…

Welcome to this beautiful hobby! I'm sure you'll love it for a long time to come (as you said, it helps to not _have_ to do it for 40hrs a week). I want to add to your description and say that the design part of the work can also be hugely satisfying! I found that there is something similar to software engineering: you can make it as simple [1] or complicated as you want, but there is something magical about finding…

Those are some fancy joints

Re: I no longer build software

#609

Post by alkonaut » Mon, Sep 21, 2020, 5:01 PM UTC

jb1991 wrote: post #20

Amen. Modern software development is frankly kinda sucky. The old days pre-2000 were arguably a lot more enjoyable. Today it's just digital plumbing and dealing with all sorts of issues that are not creative. The sheer complexity is frankly absurd as well. I've thought about moving on from software many times, and I know many who have. Just because you can do something doesn't mean it's best way to spend your short l…

I’m in desktop development (not games, not cross platform - old school document based apps) and it’s bliss. I do 95% actual programming algorithm/data structures/domain problems and only a tiny bit of wrestling package managers, deployments and other plumbing.

Re: I no longer build software

#610

Post by nicbou » Mon, Sep 21, 2020, 5:02 PM UTC

dpcan wrote: post #369

nicbou wrote: post #75

Add me to the woodworking ex-developers. I built a website that pays the bills, and now I have a lot of time on my hands. I am finishing my first piece of furniture today. It's pretty scary to work without an undo button. The physical world isn't just instructions, but movements. A little twitch can ruin a cut. A clumsy movement can dent a piece of wood you spent an hour sanding. You truly experience the meaning of "…

"I built a website that pays the bills, and now I have a lot of time on my hands." Okay.... I assume you're not going to talk about this because then you'll have so much competition you won't be able to pay the bills anymore, but do you have any generalized background information about this?

You can find it in my post history. I help people settle in my country, in plain English. It's just not the main point of this conversation.