I no longer build software • Hacker News Board

Re: I no longer build software

#551

Post by christiansakai » Mon, Sep 21, 2020, 4:18 PM UTC

marcinzm wrote: post #543

christiansakai wrote: post #478

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This. I am paid pretty well at my company right now, but there are always my colleague that I know get a higher offer for some other role. I can choose to get salty about it or just try to transition with that role but with less satisfaction and more learning. There are more to life than just chasing money. No matter who you are, peasants or kings, you are only given a limited time to live. We trade 40 hrs of our lif…

Yeah. You don't need to make bad money if you want a lack of stress but generally the difference between good money and great money is going to be a lot of stress.

Yes in the another profession but thankfully not so much in SWE world.

Re: I no longer build software

#552

Post by wvenable » Mon, Sep 21, 2020, 4:19 PM UTC

hombre_fatal wrote: post #416

protomyth wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think a lot of the pre-2000 programming was a bit more enjoyable because most of us were not programming for the web and actually using platforms that were designed for application development. The web is a very poor fit for what most people want designed.

Application development on the web is much more pleasant than what we were doing on any pre-web platform, and possibly even now. I've wanted one-way data flow (React, Elm) forever. We just have rose colored glasses because we were younger, dabbling, all tech was new and non-web tech was just what was available. And we confuse that for some sort of obvious tech superiority. I'd say those were the worst times for appli…

> I've wanted one-way data flow (React, Elm) forever.

How is that different from MVC patterns in desktop development?

Re: I no longer build software

#553

Post by UncleOxidant » Mon, Sep 21, 2020, 4:19 PM UTC

jerf wrote: post #530

aarongough wrote: post #460

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unfortunately I agree with this. A great quote I saw a while ago: “The best minds of my generation are thinking about how to make people click ads.” –Jeff Hammerbacher Every paying software job I've ever had was in some way involved getting people to click on ads. Either directly making a product where ad click rate is a measured metric, or products that helped people make products where clicking on ads was a metric.…

Have you tried... looking for one that isn't? I've been in the biz for coming up on 25 years and I've never tried to make anyone click on an ad. It also may help to downgrade "doing genuine good" from "solving the world's biggest problem once and for all" to "helping people get food reliably" or "keeping this industrial process that provides value to thousands of people going" and so on. Sometimes I do lose a bit of…

I've never had a job convincing people to click ads either in about the same amount of time. But when I look at the salaries being paid by those companies trying to get people to click ads I think I must've made a mistake somewhere. Not that I want to have a job getting people to click ads, but those jobs pay like 2X to 3X the highest salary I've ever made (or more).

Re: I no longer build software

#554

Post by TeMPOraL » Mon, Sep 21, 2020, 4:19 PM UTC

phaedrus wrote: post #483

TeMPOraL wrote: post #345

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm ~23 years behind GP, and I feel the same way as them already. Goes to say, this may be a matter of personality. There were few and brief moments in my career as a software developer when I was truly happy at my work. Most of those involved implementing an architecture or algorithm I figured out from scratch, or took from scientific literature - either as prototype or directly in the product. Sometimes as "hold my…

I like how you describe focusing on your plot of land as a positive coping strategy. I had been doing it instinctively (or necessarily), but had thought of it as some kind of failing. Your comment makes me feel better about it. The end goal of software I work on is to help airplanes land safely. But actually, I work on the software which presents the user interface that displays and sends configuration settings to a…

Thanks for sharing your story!

Yeah, I also initially felt this is some kind of failing (I'm usually the "big picture guy"), but ended up accepting this as a coping mechanism. It's not that I forget about the purpose completely - just learned to think about it more when planning and designing, where the wider perspective also affects the task in a meaningful way. When deep in the codebase, I try to put it aside, so that I don't get in a depressive session of thinking "why do I have to shovel this garbage back and forth to satisfy some low-level requirement, instead of, I don't know, talking to people who'll use this on-site and getting some real feedback from them?". Rationally, I know that shoving garbage is an important part of getting quality software that helps others do exciting things. Emotionally, I just wish I was in their shoes (probably just as much as they wish they were in mine).

You seem a bit more positive than me when facing this reality, so I'm glad you have it in you to enjoy this. I almost have it, so I find ways to cope, and enjoy the opportunities to do something less mundane that come every now and then in such projects.

Re: I no longer build software

#555

Post by kossTKR » Mon, Sep 21, 2020, 4:20 PM UTC

PragmaticPulp wrote: post #479

kossTKR wrote: post #233

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Okay so it seems most people here on HN hates their jobs? That's sad but i think its not unique. Web dev was especially insane during the IE era, more than today. Most people just hate their jobs, it's nothing unique to the tech sector and i would argue that tech is still a pretty comfortable niche to work in compared to most other fields. Doctors have extreme debt and work crazy hours, teachers get way too little, m…

> Okay so it seems most people here on HN hates their jobs? That's sad but i think its not unique. Internet comment sections have always biased toward people who hate their jobs, are unhappy with their lives, or are otherwise trying to escape into virtual distractions. Not everyone fits this description, of course, but the negative comments are over represented relative to what the general population thinks. Never in…

Important point. I do remember the general level of cynicism and depression being several magnitudes lower 10-15 years ago though - on early HN/Reddit for example - today it seems everyone hates everything and we are 1 year from collapse every year - and i don't personally disagree that we have more than enough important things to tackle, but the "i have given up"-tone has become widespread even in MS news that i don't check very often anymore.

I miss excitement, enthusiasm and humor - and yeah the world may be plummeting into tech dystopia and climate collapse but throughout time aid workers, firefighters, war time doctors and myriads of other people have kept their humor, interest and skills despite chaos around them and so should i.

About the entrepreneurship, yeah i agree but i still think "knowing how the internet works", how to make a website and how to learn by yourself is still a pretty good "extra skill" you get to have as a tech worker than can easily work as a stepping stone into new fields.

Re: I no longer build software

#556

Post by wakawaka1 » Mon, Sep 21, 2020, 4:20 PM UTC

matthewmacleod wrote: post #237

notacoward wrote: post #125

Totally on board with not building software any more. In fact, at 55 this is my last week of it. For real. Basically, everything sucks more about building software nowadays more than I remember it sucking before, from the mere mechanics of navigating through an obscenely large pseudo-object-oriented codebase to the WRONG constructs/idioms people use to build distributed systems to the way software is packaged and dep…

It goes without saying that your feelings are personal ones, totally valid, and nobody can really question them. I'm 20 years behind you, and I don't know what effect that will have on my views. But I don't really recognise the picture you're painting. Compared to the first steps I took as a developer about 15 years ago, almost everything about software development seems better to me. I find developing software to be…

I agree.

I think it's amazing to see CICD tools which make it super easy and quick to deploy web apps-- such as Vercel, for example.

Simply by booting up a github project, and starting from a template, I can deploy a SSL-secured site within minutes-- as a frontend example.

On the backend, using infrastructure-as-code solutions, to again, "templatize" a starting point, such as an AWS service or set of connected AWS services.

Whereas up until recently, I'd typically go rent a chunk of a server to run Linux, and setup NGINX-related security features myself. Not that tough, especially the more I learned NGINX. However the 3-click deployment via tools like Vercel take away so much headache. That said, at times, I think it's can be necessary and easier to simply setup a linux server, so as to have full control over the process.

It's just nice to have the additional options.

I love how much the software-supporting ecosystem has evolved.

It lets me focus more on development, and less on devops. And that what I want, as a developer-- To get to coding ASAP, and not worry about tangential concerns-- as a matter of specializing.

(Disclaimer: I only have about 2-3 years of professional experience, but prior to that, was teaching myself for about 5 years off and on. In that timespan of 7-8 years, I feel so assured and emotionally secure given the reduction of headaches due to the fact that I no longer have to learn so much ecosystem related stuff, and can focus more on programming)

Re: I no longer build software

#557

Post by altdatathrow » Mon, Sep 21, 2020, 4:20 PM UTC

tluyben2 wrote: post #499

jlangenauer wrote: post #278

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you are right to say that the methods are vastly improved, but the ends to which those methods are applied have become ever more uninteresting (for a lot of people), and often morally suspect. We have built exquisite tools, but we use them to extract profit, to manipulate behaviour and often for no discernable purpose at all. Programming has become joyless. There are ever-shrinking spaces where a developer ge…

Not to mention that those CRUD apps have been done, exactly the same, 10000s of times before and 10000s of people are doing the same work you are doing now at this moment. Everyone thinks they are productive but value is being burned all day, every day in most companies all over the world. The level of reuse is depressing and people, especially here, firmly believe we need to use the latest frontend and backend crap…

Unfortunately there are a lot of people around these parts who have arrived at the conclusion that the only way to build software today is using all those services and more (I mean, where's kubernetes in that stack?). They will aggressively defend their role which is no longer about creating software but instead entirely about weaving together a myriad of components.

Re: I no longer build software

#558

Post by eloff » Mon, Sep 21, 2020, 4:21 PM UTC

hajderr wrote: post #177

trey-jones wrote: post #172

I've recently wondered how the stresses of software development would compare to the stress of knowing my family might starve if the crops fail or that we could be set upon by brigands and murdered. I mostly make this comparison in jest, and probably as a result of having read several novels in the last 12 months that deal in various ways with the decline of civilization. However, our ancestors also probably slept be…

In physical work you have a natural outlet for that stress. Confining everything to your upper body, and even one part of it (the head) is gonna cause even more stress.

Yes, I think that physical exercise helped a lot. I go the gym every weekday at 3pm, and do heavy (for me) weight lifting for an hour. That has a great way of burning off the stress and resetting the mind. I highly recommend software engineers specifically plan some time in your day to get out of your chair and get some exercise.

Re: I no longer build software

#559

Post by kyleblarson » Mon, Sep 21, 2020, 4:23 PM UTC

throwaway8941 wrote: post #145

This is a privileged position to take. IT is one of the very few ways to have a relatively decent life in my third world (well, technically second world) country, especially for those of us who can't rely on nepotism to put them in a comfortable place. Sure, I can go make furniture out of wood for $150 a month (and I did at some point in my life), but I'd rather keep my cushy lifestyle and stare at a screen for 16 ho…

There is a middle ground.

Re: I no longer build software

#560

Post by gwittel » Mon, Sep 21, 2020, 4:23 PM UTC

jehb wrote: post #209

bilbo0s wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Serious question, didn't anyone else' school have shop class? I was a college prep, NHS, cross country, all AP core courses kind of guy, and I took it all four years of high school. Or was there some kind of restriction on taking it at your school? Or maybe your parents didn't let you? Genuinely curious as to why someone with a professed interest would not have taken shop?

Shop was heavily discouraged for college-track students when I went through high school, both by the administration in terms of guidance counseling and timing of the classes, as well as through heavy social reinforcement by peers.

Pretty much this at my high school as well. They had a shop class and auto repair class. I really wish I had taken those (I did take shop in middle school though).

Largely we had to choose -- take the college prep classes (AP whatever, languages) OR trades classes. There was definitely classism -- "trade classes are for poor kids". =(

I would much rather schools require things like: financial literacy, and building/repairs/cooking. They are lifelong skills and very useful. There's no reason its an either or proposition.