I no longer build software • Hacker News Board

Re: I no longer build software

#401

Post by NiloCK » Mon, Sep 21, 2020, 2:42 PM UTC

nicbou wrote: post #75

Add me to the woodworking ex-developers. I built a website that pays the bills, and now I have a lot of time on my hands. I am finishing my first piece of furniture today. It's pretty scary to work without an undo button. The physical world isn't just instructions, but movements. A little twitch can ruin a cut. A clumsy movement can dent a piece of wood you spent an hour sanding. You truly experience the meaning of "…

You may enjoy Shop Class as Soulcraft by Matthew Crawford. It made sense of the permanent vague anxiety I've always had while working in a digital medium.

Re: I no longer build software

#402

Post by tombert » Mon, Sep 21, 2020, 2:42 PM UTC

coldtea wrote: post #275

chpmrc wrote: post #208

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can order a comfy car anywhere I am with the tap of a button. I can order food from hundreds of restaurants and have it delivered in less than 30 mins with the tap of a button. I can book flights and hotels with the tap of a button. I can play with friends in virtual reality and actually sweat. I can watch a live stream of SpaceX launching reusable rockets in space. I could buy a car that is almost fully "self driv…

So we've mostly solved trivial non-problems if/not regressions? People lived in 1990 and didn't feel that bad to have to call a travel agency to get a ticket, or, god forbid, to actually meet friends and not in VR space... I'll give you "self driving cars" -- well, I would if they could work today, which they don't...

This seems like an awfully reductionist take, and is demonstrably wrong.

> to actually meet friends and not in VR space

Nintendo released the Virtual Boy in the 90s, a (somewhat unsuccessful) attempt at a semi-VR thing; they were (and are) a pretty big business, and I don't think that they were just doing it because they thought it was cool; there was demand for something like virtual reality at the time.

> People lived in 1990 and didn't feel that bad to have to call a travel agency to get a ticket

This is also wrong; anecdata, but at least one person (my dad) hated having to call up travel agencies in the 90s to book a plane ticket. I remember as a kid him yelling at the travel agent because he (having done a lot of business travel in the past) knew how much they were marking up the ticket and they wouldn't meet him halfway. Eventually he started calling the airlines directly to purchase tickets, and he complained a lot that there was not an easy way to compare prices between airlines. To stress, this was in roughly 1995.

Obviously this is just one person, but I seriously doubt that this was a unique experience.

Re: I no longer build software

#403

Post by monsieurbanana » Mon, Sep 21, 2020, 2:43 PM UTC

jlangenauer wrote: post #366

bad_user wrote: post #292

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, programming became useful for the mainstream. I program ever since you had to restrict arrays to 64k in Pascal's 286 real mode. It was definitely fun, but other than building really limited games and freaking text areas (that would regularly crash with out of memory errors, losing your changes), along with bad accounting software build in MS Fox, there wasn't much you could do. And I remember people literally lea…

I may be privileged, but I am neither young nor overpaid. I started programming on something called the Commodore 64, so my opinions have been refined over decades. And if I say programming has become joyless, it's because I've been around long enough to remember when it wasn't.

The joy someone can get out of programming seems like such a subjective feeling that I find it hard to believe you're generalizing your experience to all programmers.

Re: I no longer build software

#404

Post by jeremy151 » Mon, Sep 21, 2020, 2:43 PM UTC

An aside: I'd be curious to see some statistics on the number of software developers who have an interest in woodworking. I was once in a project meeting that involved two external vendors, and the topic of woodworking came up in casual conversation. It turned out that every technically oriented role in the room was not only interested, but had a wood shop in their home. Something like 8-10 people. There seem to be a number of parallels between development and woodworking, but anecdotally the number of people I've met with an interest in both is very high.

Re: I no longer build software

#405

Post by genidoi » Mon, Sep 21, 2020, 2:44 PM UTC

lmarcos wrote: post #374

blueterminal wrote: post #264

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I completely agree. Docker, amazing frameworks (Laravel, Django, ReactJS etc.), git, CI, amazing IDEs, etc. It's absolutely magical compared to what we had 15 years ago. Entry level is much higher though for sure, you definitely need to learn and know a lot. But once you do know certain things at a certain level, you become a very powerful individual.

And here it lays the paradox. All the tools you have mentioned have little to do with programming (one individual solving problems by writing code). The tools you mentioned have to do with software engineering (a bunch of individuals solving problems by writing code, plus a bunch of constraints). The joy is in programming, not in software engineering. At least that's how I interprete the GitHub comment (and all these…

I think it's easy to forget that modern tooling (+AWS/GCP/Azure) let's one dev match or exceed the productivity of 15 developers and a couple of PMs in 2005.

Re: I no longer build software

#406

Post by sli » Mon, Sep 21, 2020, 2:44 PM UTC

bob1029 wrote: post #267

mythz wrote: post #239

Seems to be a heavy "all modern software development sucks" vibe in this thread, when the issue is more "software I get paid to write sucks". What software would you write if you could write whatever you wanted using whatever language/technology you wanted? Unless all the joy gets sucked out beforehand, pretty sure I'm going to move to be developing Mobile Apps after I retire. It was the most fun I've had writing App…

Modern software development is incredible if you are able to avoid the buzzword bullshit and focus on delivering cool solutions that solve real problems.

I've never worked a development job where I get any say in avoiding buzzwords or delivering solutions I would call cool. I typically get caught up in clients bikeshedding irrelevant details and managers enabling and promoting it.

I hear so much on HN and on reddit about jobs that give programmers some level of autonomy but I just don't see it. My entire experience is very much the opposite, and I absolutely loathe this awful industry.

Re: I no longer build software

#407

Post by TeMPOraL » Mon, Sep 21, 2020, 2:44 PM UTC

nickthemagicman wrote: post #361

cpursley wrote: post #284

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The downvotes are fun. I guess some people are just against inclusiveness? I'm very grateful to be in this industry despite not having the "correct" background.

I don't get the downvotes. You have a very solid extremely valid counter point and I think the person you're responding too created a false dichomtomy. Cheaper does not eliminate the quality. They can both co-exist and indeed do. The lower tier just opens the door for a group of people who never had access before. Thank you for your input.

Ignore the downvotes. Initial votes are misleading, and if the comment is substantial, they'll stabilize to a reasonable value over the following couple hours.

> Cheaper does not eliminate the quality. They can both co-exist and indeed do.

It sometimes does, if it eliminates quality out of the market. Say a quality frame costed $500 before; then you have a new, cheaper technology that can achieve similar performance by cutting out more extreme loads / road conditions; as manufacturers jump at it to save money, suddenly the whole $100-$800 range uses just that, and the quality frame rises to $1500 due to collapsing demand. Can't say whether it's good or bad on the whole, but it annoys the hell out of me in cases where I could afford the quality product but I can't, because nobody is making it anymore.

Re: I no longer build software

#408

Post by shrubble » Mon, Sep 21, 2020, 2:44 PM UTC

selfhoster11 wrote: post #136

jb1991 wrote: post #20

Amen. Modern software development is frankly kinda sucky. The old days pre-2000 were arguably a lot more enjoyable. Today it's just digital plumbing and dealing with all sorts of issues that are not creative. The sheer complexity is frankly absurd as well. I've thought about moving on from software many times, and I know many who have. Just because you can do something doesn't mean it's best way to spend your short l…

It's digital plumbing, but it pays well. My parents did physical work, and frankly I'd rather earn my keep with a keyboard than with my hands.

What do you use to strike the keys on your keyboard?

Re: I no longer build software

#409

Post by ChuckNorris89 » Mon, Sep 21, 2020, 2:45 PM UTC

user5994461 wrote: post #263

kossTKR wrote: post #233

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Okay so it seems most people here on HN hates their jobs? That's sad but i think its not unique. Web dev was especially insane during the IE era, more than today. Most people just hate their jobs, it's nothing unique to the tech sector and i would argue that tech is still a pretty comfortable niche to work in compared to most other fields. Doctors have extreme debt and work crazy hours, teachers get way too little, m…

Doctors have guaranteed work and income (the debt is only true in the US), they can walk into any hospital to get a job or open their own office, their status is protected and the job cannot be outsourced abroad. Have a look at what doctors make and what engineers make, the H1B salary data is a good sample, you will see that engineers are very pale in comparison. Teachers have guaranteed job, good income and many ben…

Yeah, this. As a doctor, the older you get, the more valuable you become(usually) while as a SW engineer the older you get ... well you know it already.

You have no competition from abroad and no shortage for demand, like seriously, do you know any area that's lacking sick people?

Not to mention status.

Re: I no longer build software

#410

Post by sergiotapia » Mon, Sep 21, 2020, 2:46 PM UTC

This weekend I started building a plain old server-side rendered web application.

It felt really good to stop dicking around with APIs and graphql and resolvers and other bullshit and just get a working product that's fast. Lovely.

Also write a largish project in Nim, clean and simple. Lovely.

You don't _have_ to run the hamster wheel that is modern web technologies. That's what is sapping your energy. React, webpack, thunk, memos (lmao) and other churning blog-driven-developments. Don't do it!