I no longer build software • Hacker News Board

Re: I no longer build software

#201

Post by smoyer » Mon, Sep 21, 2020, 1:13 PM UTC

notacoward wrote: post #125

Totally on board with not building software any more. In fact, at 55 this is my last week of it. For real. Basically, everything sucks more about building software nowadays more than I remember it sucking before, from the mere mechanics of navigating through an obscenely large pseudo-object-oriented codebase to the WRONG constructs/idioms people use to build distributed systems to the way software is packaged and dep…

I'm 56 and STILL love building software ... I started coding as a hobby when I was in 6th grade, built my first computer (a COSMAC Elf) when I was in 10th grade and spent 20 years doing a combination of electronics and software engineering. For the last (almost) 20 years, I've been only doing software development with a small amount of consulting on hardware design and hobbyist projects. (And the weirdly political intersection with these disciplines while working on a committee that wrote part of the DOCSIS cable modem spec). I have no intention of throwing in the towel and am really enjoying the Go language (and happy to see that Java is taking steps to reduce the complexity of the JakartaEE framework).

But ...

I used to code for fun in my spare time and more recently I'm finding myself working on "shop" projects. I sold my pocket-cruiser (a small yacht) and I'm building a couple of small wooden boats. I have a '71 Saab Sonnett III I'm in the process of restoring and a '71 VW Karman Ghia that's next on the list. I thoroughly endorse the idea of doing something with your hands - it's so much more satisfying than sitting in front of the TV.

Re: I no longer build software

#202

Post by fxtentacle » Mon, Sep 21, 2020, 1:13 PM UTC

notacoward wrote: post #125

Totally on board with not building software any more. In fact, at 55 this is my last week of it. For real. Basically, everything sucks more about building software nowadays more than I remember it sucking before, from the mere mechanics of navigating through an obscenely large pseudo-object-oriented codebase to the WRONG constructs/idioms people use to build distributed systems to the way software is packaged and dep…

I believe the main thing that changed is that 10 years ago, "building software" meant you would work with (presumably reasonable) engineers. Nowadays, it means you do web busywork for some newly rich kid chasing a startup lifestyle, who may or may not have any idea about what's easy/difficult possible/impossible.

Also, the whole industry has been strongly commercialized. Before, people would share source code on the internet just for the fun of it. Nowadays, that is a surefire way for someone else to take your source code and sell it as theirs. I mean that's basically what Cloud providers do. They rent out access to open source software.

The insane pressure of money also makes sure that most software nowadays is not build to any reasonable engineering standard, even when it really should be (like Boeing MCAS). Instead, every piece of software nowadays is optimized for the sweet spot between sucking so bad that nobody buys it and not spending a penny more than what is necessary.

The goal of software development has changed, and I think $1 phone apps nicely illustrate the new commercial landscape. It's the bare minimum quality at the bare minimum price.

BTW, on a related note, most bicycles made in 2000 still had a much more stable frame than the 2020 models. The marked switched from costly steel to cheaper aluminum so that you can make $300 supermarket bikes. And obviously, the quality has suffered.

It appears that in general, there's always a race to the lowest possible quality in the hopes of reducing costs, thereby increasing profits. Does anyone have any suggestion how we could reverse this trend in general?

Re: I no longer build software

#203

Post by senko » Mon, Sep 21, 2020, 1:13 PM UTC

intotheabyss wrote: post #143

I'm a mechanical engineer in aerospace looking to move to software. I like the idea of setting up an office at home and working for myself. Is software really this bad, as all of the comments here suggest? Should I make the jump to software from a career in which I have a decade of experience? I just find aerospace boring, unimaginative, stressful and low paying, and if I could work on just building code for web apps…

Grass is always greener on the other side.

Programming can be great, fun, challenging and profitable, but it can also be tedious, boring, demoralizing and hours can be miserable. It all depends on the company and the project you're working on.

I agree with most of the haters in this thread yet I wouldn't trade it for another kind of job :-)

> I just find aerospace boring, unimaginative, stressful and low paying,

Could you expand on that a bit? To an outsider aerospace sounds much cooler than making web widgets with questionable purpose...

Re: I no longer build software

#204

Post by qz2 » Mon, Sep 21, 2020, 1:13 PM UTC

notacoward wrote: post #125

Totally on board with not building software any more. In fact, at 55 this is my last week of it. For real. Basically, everything sucks more about building software nowadays more than I remember it sucking before, from the mere mechanics of navigating through an obscenely large pseudo-object-oriented codebase to the WRONG constructs/idioms people use to build distributed systems to the way software is packaged and dep…

Your first paragraph nails it completely. The entire software ecosystem is like having infinite layers of train crashes to fight through every day.

The purpose of a lot of software is to make software, not to solve problems.

Re: I no longer build software

#205

Post by kls » Mon, Sep 21, 2020, 1:13 PM UTC

leothekim wrote: post #159

notacoward wrote: post #125

Totally on board with not building software any more. In fact, at 55 this is my last week of it. For real. Basically, everything sucks more about building software nowadays more than I remember it sucking before, from the mere mechanics of navigating through an obscenely large pseudo-object-oriented codebase to the WRONG constructs/idioms people use to build distributed systems to the way software is packaged and dep…

> Building software was never simple or easy I think it’s gotten a whole lot simpler in the past 10 years. People used to have to rack their own hardware, install PDUs, check temperature gauges, plug wires, configure the switches, setup RAID and backups, make sure you have that serial cable plugged in so you can telnet in in case the switches don’t work, and lock the data center doors without forgetting their keys ba…

I think it is funny you mention 10 years because I would agree with you, in the last 10 years we corrected a lot of the sins that we did in early web dev, but I think the lament reaches further back. Move back 25 years ago and it was much easier. A kid in his room could singlehandedly write the next big thing. Things in a lot of ways where much simpler then, it's hard to not look back on that period without a lot of nostalgia.

Re: I no longer build software

#206

Post by yetihehe » Mon, Sep 21, 2020, 1:14 PM UTC

trey-jones wrote: post #172

I've recently wondered how the stresses of software development would compare to the stress of knowing my family might starve if the crops fail or that we could be set upon by brigands and murdered. I mostly make this comparison in jest, and probably as a result of having read several novels in the last 12 months that deal in various ways with the decline of civilization. However, our ancestors also probably slept be…

I think they think about this like we think about making an error which will delete whole database of our client. It happens to us, but there are some safety nets everywhere. Several families in the world may be so unlucky as to get killed, but it's not day to day worry for everyone.

Re: I no longer build software

#207

Post by fxtentacle » Mon, Sep 21, 2020, 1:14 PM UTC

analog31 wrote: post #190

DarkWiiPlayer wrote: post #168

It seems like nowadays you just can't make money building interesting things anymore. Most of the available programming work is really just writing glue code to make big software systems work as intended, to the point where it can feel more like writing configuration files than actual programming. Put simply, 98% of programming these days is scripting. On the other hand, you have lots of fun things one can do with co…

This could just be an outgrowth of complexity. As the number of pieces increases by O(n), the number of relationships between pieces goes as O(n^2). As a result, any endeavor is going to tend towards the majority of people working on connecting pieces. This is true in plenty of occupations. I've seen it in mechanical and electrical design, for instance. With that said, I know a lot of good people who actually enjoy t…

I think so. That's why eventually you shatter your monolith into micro-services and then have 1000+ people work on coordinating how these services deal with each other.

Re: I no longer build software

#208

Post by chpmrc » Mon, Sep 21, 2020, 1:14 PM UTC

DarkWiiPlayer wrote: post #168

It seems like nowadays you just can't make money building interesting things anymore. Most of the available programming work is really just writing glue code to make big software systems work as intended, to the point where it can feel more like writing configuration files than actual programming. Put simply, 98% of programming these days is scripting. On the other hand, you have lots of fun things one can do with co…

I can order a comfy car anywhere I am with the tap of a button.

I can order food from hundreds of restaurants and have it delivered in less than 30 mins with the tap of a button.

I can book flights and hotels with the tap of a button.

I can play with friends in virtual reality and actually sweat.

I can watch a live stream of SpaceX launching reusable rockets in space.

I could buy a car that is almost fully "self driving".

I can exchange value with anyone in the world anonymously and with no delays or censorship thanks to cryptocurrencies.

I can land in a completely foreign city and get step by step directions to wherever I need to go.

I can translate almost any language in real time, be it in writing, spoken or taken from an image.

And so on...You can (and most of the time do) get paid to build interesting things. It's just that most of us are unable to look at the big picture and not realize that the combined effort of a team is more valuable than the sum of the individual efforts. And if you do actually work on stuff you don't find interesting there is enough demand that switching is not that hard.

And if you want to solve puzzles for the sake of solving puzzles then there are plenty of resources for that.

Plenty of choice in my honest opinion.

Re: I no longer build software

#209

Post by jehb » Mon, Sep 21, 2020, 1:14 PM UTC

bilbo0s wrote: post #40

secondcoming wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I too would love to do it. It irks me to this day that I was taught nonsense such as latin in school instead of woodwork or metalwork.

Serious question, didn't anyone else' school have shop class? I was a college prep, NHS, cross country, all AP core courses kind of guy, and I took it all four years of high school. Or was there some kind of restriction on taking it at your school? Or maybe your parents didn't let you? Genuinely curious as to why someone with a professed interest would not have taken shop?

Shop was heavily discouraged for college-track students when I went through high school, both by the administration in terms of guidance counseling and timing of the classes, as well as through heavy social reinforcement by peers.

Re: I no longer build software

#210

Post by amyjess » Mon, Sep 21, 2020, 1:14 PM UTC

lukaszkups wrote: post #71

jnwatson wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I‘ve been programming for over 35 years now and have mostly avoided doing web stuff. It is quite possible.

how? SAP/ERP consulting?

I can't speak for GP, but I do behind-the-scenes networking stuff for an enterprise ISP.

My team's responsibilities include configuration management, fault management, and certain KPI monitoring. We don't need to write webapps for that (though we do integrate with them) :)