I no longer build software • Hacker News Board

Re: I no longer build software

#391

Post by varispeed » Mon, Sep 21, 2020, 2:34 PM UTC

nicbou wrote: post #75

Add me to the woodworking ex-developers. I built a website that pays the bills, and now I have a lot of time on my hands. I am finishing my first piece of furniture today. It's pretty scary to work without an undo button. The physical world isn't just instructions, but movements. A little twitch can ruin a cut. A clumsy movement can dent a piece of wood you spent an hour sanding. You truly experience the meaning of "…

> Add me to the woodworking ex-developers (...) I have a lot of time on my hands.

Be careful with that table saw...

Re: I no longer build software

#392

Post by notacoward » Mon, Sep 21, 2020, 2:34 PM UTC

mumblemumble wrote: post #330

notacoward wrote: post #125

Totally on board with not building software any more. In fact, at 55 this is my last week of it. For real. Basically, everything sucks more about building software nowadays more than I remember it sucking before, from the mere mechanics of navigating through an obscenely large pseudo-object-oriented codebase to the WRONG constructs/idioms people use to build distributed systems to the way software is packaged and dep…

After having read the article Built to Last [1] from the latest issue of Logic Magazine over my morning coffee, and spending breakfast pondering my coming day of figuring out if we can disentangle some stuff I'm working on from the increasingly complex and inscrutable Big Data ecosystem, and if it's even going to be possible to get management to approve it when the requests to stick RSS feeds into DBMSes are forever…

> "... many people don’t even see the preference for complex languages for what it is: an attempt to protect one’s status by favoring tools that gate-keep rather than those that assist newcomers."

Don't forget the ones who jump onto a new language or framework so that by dint of experience they can be the gatekeepers for the next generation. This was staggeringly apparent with both Java and Go, each in their time.

Re: I no longer build software

#393

Post by Bahamut » Mon, Sep 21, 2020, 2:34 PM UTC

TeMPOraL wrote: post #345

matthewmacleod wrote: post #237

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It goes without saying that your feelings are personal ones, totally valid, and nobody can really question them. I'm 20 years behind you, and I don't know what effect that will have on my views. But I don't really recognise the picture you're painting. Compared to the first steps I took as a developer about 15 years ago, almost everything about software development seems better to me. I find developing software to be…

I'm ~23 years behind GP, and I feel the same way as them already. Goes to say, this may be a matter of personality. There were few and brief moments in my career as a software developer when I was truly happy at my work. Most of those involved implementing an architecture or algorithm I figured out from scratch, or took from scientific literature - either as prototype or directly in the product. Sometimes as "hold my…

I suspect it is all about perspective - I entered software development out of desperation for any career tract job out of grad school 8 years ago, experiencing 2.5 years of a desperate job search while enlisting in the Marine Corps Reserve in the interim. I was ecstatic that I entered a profession where I can solve problems, and I’m still very happy I can do so today, even while having grinded up to senior at a FAANG.

I no longer code outside of work though & found a happy balance of learning on the job with my productivity. I find the amount I do get to spend coding also has gone down - a lot of my time is spent mentoring, in meetings, writing planning docs, and just thinking about projects, or occasionally researching what’s the best paradigm for my problem. I am ok with this, as I am taking more joy in being a leader than directly coding necessarily. I recognize not everyone shares the same perspective though.

Re: I no longer build software

#394

Post by devilduck » Mon, Sep 21, 2020, 2:37 PM UTC

notacoward wrote: post #276

matthewmacleod wrote: post #237

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It goes without saying that your feelings are personal ones, totally valid, and nobody can really question them. I'm 20 years behind you, and I don't know what effect that will have on my views. But I don't really recognise the picture you're painting. Compared to the first steps I took as a developer about 15 years ago, almost everything about software development seems better to me. I find developing software to be…

Thank you for sharing your perspective. It honestly warms my heart to see that some people believe the trajectory is still upward. > Maybe I just enjoy software right now because I've now got the technical competence and confidence to avoid some of the frustrations that I experienced earlier Just as some but not all of my (mostly negative) perception is surely personal, might I suggest that some but not all of your (…

The issue isn't so much the trajectory, but the people in the industry. I've been repeating for a while now that there are too many people who are not team players, who are basically still cowboy coders, looking to scratch their own personal technical itches rather than working together to build good software. This has been my experience for the last 5 years at least. It definitely reminds me more of the 90s, when the industry was a mess because it was new and growing. My issue is mostly with the people though, not the actual work. Lots of self-righteousness. Lots of people wanting everything to be on 'hard mode.' And as someone else commented, there is definitely a Stockholm Syndrome with the money involved since I now can not do anything else and maintain my life. Nor has this industry made it easy to change jobs. Nobody wants to train, everyone seems very cheap, but they want to hire Kobe. I am counting the days before I get broken.

Re: I no longer build software

#395

Post by someguydave » Mon, Sep 21, 2020, 2:38 PM UTC

user5994461 wrote: post #263

kossTKR wrote: post #233

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Okay so it seems most people here on HN hates their jobs? That's sad but i think its not unique. Web dev was especially insane during the IE era, more than today. Most people just hate their jobs, it's nothing unique to the tech sector and i would argue that tech is still a pretty comfortable niche to work in compared to most other fields. Doctors have extreme debt and work crazy hours, teachers get way too little, m…

Doctors have guaranteed work and income (the debt is only true in the US), they can walk into any hospital to get a job or open their own office, their status is protected and the job cannot be outsourced abroad. Have a look at what doctors make and what engineers make, the H1B salary data is a good sample, you will see that engineers are very pale in comparison. Teachers have guaranteed job, good income and many ben…

Yes both teachers and doctors in the US are protected from competing with immigrants through licensing schemes. They are also protected from competition due to the fact that they can be paid mostly from government accounts.

Re: I no longer build software

#396

Post by mumblemumble » Mon, Sep 21, 2020, 2:38 PM UTC

someguydave wrote: post #372

mumblemumble wrote: post #330

Earlier quoted context omitted.

After having read the article Built to Last [1] from the latest issue of Logic Magazine over my morning coffee, and spending breakfast pondering my coming day of figuring out if we can disentangle some stuff I'm working on from the increasingly complex and inscrutable Big Data ecosystem, and if it's even going to be possible to get management to approve it when the requests to stick RSS feeds into DBMSes are forever…

Alternatively, one could take the view that low-abstraction languages are designed to turn programmers into replaceable parts. This benefits the “low-quality for low-price” software vendor culture at the expense of programmer’s pay and status and also at the expense of the customer’s ownership and quality experience.

This attitude, both from the business side and from the developer side, has always struck me as an egregious misapprehension about where the value in software development lies.

It's never about the code. It's about getting the job done, and the code is just a tool for getting it done. And getting the job done is ultimately about domain expertise, or design skill, or engineering acumen, or any number of more abstract skills. When developers get all protectionist about complex technical tooling instead of focusing on perfecting their ability to get the actual job done, that's a moral own goal. It doesn't challenge the idea that developer skills are inherently low-value and replaceable, it takes the idea as a given, and asks, "OK, since we're inherently low-value and replaceable, how can we artificially make it harder to replace us?"

Me, I don't want to respond to the idea that I'm just a code monkey by trying to be the fanciest code monkey imaginable. I don't want to be a code monkey in the first place.

Re: I no longer build software

#397

Post by kevlarr » Mon, Sep 21, 2020, 2:38 PM UTC

coldtea wrote: post #275

chpmrc wrote: post #208

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can order a comfy car anywhere I am with the tap of a button. I can order food from hundreds of restaurants and have it delivered in less than 30 mins with the tap of a button. I can book flights and hotels with the tap of a button. I can play with friends in virtual reality and actually sweat. I can watch a live stream of SpaceX launching reusable rockets in space. I could buy a car that is almost fully "self driv…

So we've mostly solved trivial non-problems if/not regressions? People lived in 1990 and didn't feel that bad to have to call a travel agency to get a ticket, or, god forbid, to actually meet friends and not in VR space... I'll give you "self driving cars" -- well, I would if they could work today, which they don't...

> So we've mostly solved trivial non-problems if/not regressions?

This. I get called a Luddite because I rant about the vastness of useless tech, but I love tech. I simply think most of what people focus on is useless and that "the immediacy to which I can do anything" now is actually very psychologically harmful.

Re: I no longer build software

#398

Post by btbuildem » Mon, Sep 21, 2020, 2:39 PM UTC

Well.. I've made that switch over a decade ago, and came back. Software pays better (or, a mediocre software dev like myself will do better than a mediocre carpenter like myself, because it's harder to see the mistakes I made).

It turns out any passionate activity that you do as a job will tend to get the soul sucked out of it once you do it for money. Reality of having to make a profit means you work on what pays not what you want to work on, cut corners and make compromises. Doesn't take too long before you start feeling that.

The very very few lucky among us (and I count myself in that group today) will stumble upon a situation where job and joy overlap -- and it has so much more to do with the people we work with rather than the subject matter. Seek out positions that give you autonomy of choice and creative freedom, having a playground (even if limited) helps a lot.

Re: I no longer build software

#399

Post by meshenna » Mon, Sep 21, 2020, 2:39 PM UTC

notacoward wrote: post #125

Totally on board with not building software any more. In fact, at 55 this is my last week of it. For real. Basically, everything sucks more about building software nowadays more than I remember it sucking before, from the mere mechanics of navigating through an obscenely large pseudo-object-oriented codebase to the WRONG constructs/idioms people use to build distributed systems to the way software is packaged and dep…

I saw this joke in a thread somewhere:

Junior engineer: thinks they know everything

Intermediate engineer: thinks they know nothing

Senior engineer: hates computers

Re: I no longer build software

#400

Post by anticristi » Mon, Sep 21, 2020, 2:41 PM UTC

analog31 wrote: post #190

DarkWiiPlayer wrote: post #168

It seems like nowadays you just can't make money building interesting things anymore. Most of the available programming work is really just writing glue code to make big software systems work as intended, to the point where it can feel more like writing configuration files than actual programming. Put simply, 98% of programming these days is scripting. On the other hand, you have lots of fun things one can do with co…

This could just be an outgrowth of complexity. As the number of pieces increases by O(n), the number of relationships between pieces goes as O(n^2). As a result, any endeavor is going to tend towards the majority of people working on connecting pieces. This is true in plenty of occupations. I've seen it in mechanical and electrical design, for instance. With that said, I know a lot of good people who actually enjoy t…

Very nicely put. I mean look at a car: It's essentially a lot of 3rd party components put together coherently. I don't think any part of my Peugeot has a Peugeot label on it, rather Bosch, Autoliv, Michelin, etc.

Same thing with airplanes. Boeing is pretty much Honeywell+GE+Liebherr to name a few.

I am unsure why people find componentizing and integrating unrewarding in IT. I didn't hear my dad (a sound engineer) complain that he no longer spins a wire onto a metal to obtain a speaker. :)