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I no longer build software

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Re: I no longer build software

#321
After reading a bunch of the comments in this thread, I have to wonder if people here have ever actually spent significant time outside of IT. It seems not.

I had a continuous stream of manual labour PT or FT jobs between 15 and 23, before getting my first IT job and when I started it was a fucking revelation. People would pay me $40k/y to sit at a comfortable desk and think and write?! No baking and sweating the hot sun, no threat of injuries, no freezing in the winter time, no clocking in/out, no petty criminal coworkers?! I don't think memory of that feeling will ever go away. And yes, I did do some woodworking as well.

Re: I no longer build software

#322
post #208

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can order a comfy car anywhere I am with the tap of a button. I can order food from hundreds of restaurants and have it delivered in less than 30 mins with the tap of a button. I can book flights and hotels with the tap of a button. I can play with friends in virtual reality and actually sweat. I can watch a live stream of SpaceX launching reusable rockets in space. I could buy a car that is almost fully "self driv…

All this, yet the world is unquestionably getting worse. Crazy times.

No, it's not. Life has been much better overall. What things are you seeing that is getting worse? I would say things are getting exposed and change is taking place. And you are just being introduced to the harsh reality that exists outside your initial bubble.

Re: I no longer build software

#323

It seems like nowadays you just can't make money building interesting things anymore. Most of the available programming work is really just writing glue code to make big software systems work as intended, to the point where it can feel more like writing configuration files than actual programming. Put simply, 98% of programming these days is scripting. On the other hand, you have lots of fun things one can do with co…

20+ years ago, a sizable chunk of the software workforce was dedicated to converting legacy systems from 2 digit year codes into 4 digits.

The notion that all the interesting work was done in yesteryear is just looking at the past through rose-colored glasses. At any time in history most software work was glue code. Because the low-hanging fruit is always going to be taking existing systems and applying small tweaks to extend their functionality to a slightly different domain.

Truly innovative software has always been done by the tip of the spear. Building something new and valuable is risky and difficult. 95% of the time the end product is worthless. And that's assuming that everyone on the team is highly competent. You either have to be willing to take a lot of personal risk, or have a good enough reputation that someone's willing to pay you to take crazy risks. In other words, work that never has and never will be done by the median engineer.

But this is pretty much true of any job in the knowledge economy. The average lawyer is just writing templated boilerplate contracts, not arguing Constitutional law before the Supreme Court. The average accountant is just filing personal and small business taxes, not uncovering high-level corporate fraud. The average doctor does the same simple procedure all day long, not working on a cure for cancer. The average academic does by-the-number meaningless research to get his publication count up, not research deep breakthroughs in his field.

Re: I no longer build software

#324
I can't relate to any of the "software sucks now" comments. I started off writing code the "old school" way. C or C++ using vanilla vim. I spent so much time wrestling with compile errors, pointer logic, memory management, looking up documentation to figure out what methods were available in a class, and using grep to figure out where/how methods were calling one another. It was a colossal mess. I had almost no interest in programming because I spent the vast majority of my time yak shaving, not coding.

Then ten years later, I discovered IDEs with inline compile warnings, autocompletions, method suggestions. I discovered stack overflow, and languages with automated garbage collection. My productivity skyrocketed. I started liking coding again, for the same reason I initially liked math and logic puzzles. I could spend more time problem solving and less time document chasing.

To anyone who thinks things have actually gotten worse, I would suggest building a toy project using a 90s tech stack, and comparing that to a modern tech stack. The kind of things I was able to build in the last few years in my free time, I can't even imagine building in the 90s. If things seem increasingly complex today, it's only because the bar has been raised so much higher.

Re: I no longer build software

#325
post #251

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Woodworking is apart of a series of skills that transfer to other useful trades. Hard to make buildings if you don't know how the basics of how wood works.

I didn't pick up woodworking to build a house. If that was my goal, sticking to programming would be the fastest way to get a house built. My ability to make money from programming far exceeds my ability to save money by doing anything else. If it was about the money, I wouldn't rent a garage, fill it with tools and spend my weekends building subpar furniture for twice the cost (a common woodworking trope). I'd just…

I probably average to about $50/hour programming. Last time I hired someone to fix something in my house I ended up paying about $350 for 1.5 hours of work. Physical materials was just a low voltage cable.

I had a plumber quote me $1300 to replace a $250 part that just screws on/off. I did it myself in a few hours.

Since I work on salary, one of the best ways for me to get more money is to save mine by not paying overpriced contractors to fix things around my house.

Re: I no longer build software

#326

I feel like there is kinda a lot of overanalyzing in this thread. I'll steal a line from Drew Carey: "There's a club for people who hate there jobs. It's called everyone, and our meetings are at the bar on 5PM on Fridays." If anything, I think the tech world (and indeed most of the professional world) has been fed a load of bull that work is supposed to be personally spiritually fulfilling, instead of something that…

[deleted]

Re: I no longer build software

#327
post #287
post #253

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Uhh. Before I didn’t even have Internet, much less a screen on which I could tap on a button.

I think the implication is that ride hailing, delivery ordering, and flight/hotel booking were possible to do by calling the company on the telephone . Which— if you already know precisely what you want—has almost as little friction as opening an app and tapping a button. (And to make that apply more often, these companies used to distribute fliers containing their “browsable UI.”) “Live streams” of rocket launches w…

Not my experience.

I used to buy the new Thomas Guide (the 1 inch thick paper map book to find my way around Los Angeles). Having Google Maps on my phone has massively changed that. In the middle we had Nav systems but even then I now live somewhere where public transportation is the norm and being able to ask Google Maps how to get somewhere as been a life changing experience. As one concrete example, from 2000-2010 I pretty much never took the bus except for the one that went by my house. Now, since Google Maps will tell me which bus to take it's so trivial just to take whatever it tells me.

As for VR in arcades in the 80s they were remotely as good as 4 yr old VR today. not even in the same league. That's like comparing a 1970s calculator to a smartphone.

Re: I no longer build software

#328
post #223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> most of it too is just trivial oil and tire changes or changing a basic part of two I bet that it feels better and more rewarding than updating a dependency and spending 2 days fixing all the errors caused by updating, especially knowing that you will have to do the same thing in a few months. There is something that feels good when you create/fix/improve a real object compared to a software one.

As someone who works on engines and writes code, let me tell you that the feeling is exactly the same. All complex systems stir up the same emotions. It's frustrating as can be when it doesn't work, and it feels great when it finally does work. As a human, dealing with complexity is all the same, no matter the medium.

I do agree that "complex systems stir up the same emotions", but I was more referring to the simpler systems. I enjoy putting the dishes back into the cupboard a lot more than I enjoy moving icons on a desktop.

Re: I no longer build software

#329

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It goes without saying that your feelings are personal ones, totally valid, and nobody can really question them. I'm 20 years behind you, and I don't know what effect that will have on my views. But I don't really recognise the picture you're painting. Compared to the first steps I took as a developer about 15 years ago, almost everything about software development seems better to me. I find developing software to be…

I think you are right to say that the methods are vastly improved, but the ends to which those methods are applied have become ever more uninteresting (for a lot of people), and often morally suspect. We have built exquisite tools, but we use them to extract profit, to manipulate behaviour and often for no discernable purpose at all. Programming has become joyless. There are ever-shrinking spaces where a developer ge…

There are ever-shrinking spaces where a developer gets to build something novel

I think it might be possible to say that relative to the entire industry the space for novel or interesting work is shrinking – possibly. But I don't think that actually means there's less interesting stuff to work on. If anything, the spaces for that are growing – maybe more routine work is growing faster, but I can't really say. I'd wager that the majority of software for its entire history has been pretty boring.

Re: I no longer build software

#330

Totally on board with not building software any more. In fact, at 55 this is my last week of it. For real. Basically, everything sucks more about building software nowadays more than I remember it sucking before, from the mere mechanics of navigating through an obscenely large pseudo-object-oriented codebase to the WRONG constructs/idioms people use to build distributed systems to the way software is packaged and dep…

After having read the article Built to Last[1] from the latest issue of Logic Magazine over my morning coffee, and spending breakfast pondering my coming day of figuring out if we can disentangle some stuff I'm working on from the increasingly complex and inscrutable Big Data ecosystem, and if it's even going to be possible to get management to approve it when the requests to stick RSS feeds into DBMSes are forever piling up, and generally thinking about my own mid-career situation, and, this comment really hit me like a punch in the gut.

This quote from Built to Last is going to stick with me for a while: "... many people don’t even see the preference for complex languages for what it is: an attempt to protect one’s status by favoring tools that gate-keep rather than those that assist newcomers."

I'm not leaving the industry any time soon. At least in the abstract, I do like what I do for a living, and believe that there are still some habitable spaces left in the field of informatics. But there's a part of me that is beginning to wonder if the best and most comprehensive literary (sort of) analogy for modern software engineering culture isn't the Orks from Warhammer 40,000.

[1]:https://logicmag.io/care/built-to-last/

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