I no longer build software • Hacker News Board

Re: I no longer build software

#231

Post by tinyhouse » Mon, Sep 21, 2020, 1:20 PM UTC

notacoward wrote: post #125

Totally on board with not building software any more. In fact, at 55 this is my last week of it. For real. Basically, everything sucks more about building software nowadays more than I remember it sucking before, from the mere mechanics of navigating through an obscenely large pseudo-object-oriented codebase to the WRONG constructs/idioms people use to build distributed systems to the way software is packaged and dep…

I keep saying it. Building software in tech sucks. The process, the people who complicate everything, all the unnecessary features that bloat the code, spending all your day reviewing pull requests, etc. But building software in general is fun. For me it's also not so much about the software but about the business. When the business motivation is clear and I believe in it, then I'm motivated to build software. And when I say business motivation it can even mean me wanting to learn something.

Re: I no longer build software

#232

Post by cpursley » Mon, Sep 21, 2020, 1:20 PM UTC

fxtentacle wrote: post #202

notacoward wrote: post #125

Totally on board with not building software any more. In fact, at 55 this is my last week of it. For real. Basically, everything sucks more about building software nowadays more than I remember it sucking before, from the mere mechanics of navigating through an obscenely large pseudo-object-oriented codebase to the WRONG constructs/idioms people use to build distributed systems to the way software is packaged and dep…

I believe the main thing that changed is that 10 years ago, "building software" meant you would work with (presumably reasonable) engineers. Nowadays, it means you do web busywork for some newly rich kid chasing a startup lifestyle, who may or may not have any idea about what's easy/difficult possible/impossible. Also, the whole industry has been strongly commercialized. Before, people would share source code on the…

Your overall tone is negative and elitist.

Thee $300 supermarket bike (I have one and put over 40 miles on it weekly and it's help up fine for four years) provides access to folks who otherwise can't afford the fancy $1,500 aluminium/carbon machines. Fancy bikes are still getting made and even getting better.

Newly rich kid or VC funded startups distributes money from wealthy people to an every growing software industry. It allows people like me to work in software; something that was previously only available to elite educated people who happened to live in the correct zip code.

tl;dr: The pie has increased in size and become much more inclusive. Yes, there is a lot of low-quality pie out there. But there is also plenty of high-quality pie for those who can afford it. This is good for everyone except the very elite entrenched class.

Re: I no longer build software

#233

Post by kossTKR » Mon, Sep 21, 2020, 1:21 PM UTC

jb1991 wrote: post #20

Amen. Modern software development is frankly kinda sucky. The old days pre-2000 were arguably a lot more enjoyable. Today it's just digital plumbing and dealing with all sorts of issues that are not creative. The sheer complexity is frankly absurd as well. I've thought about moving on from software many times, and I know many who have. Just because you can do something doesn't mean it's best way to spend your short l…

Okay so it seems most people here on HN hates their jobs? That's sad but i think its not unique.

Web dev was especially insane during the IE era, more than today.

Most people just hate their jobs, it's nothing unique to the tech sector and i would argue that tech is still a pretty comfortable niche to work in compared to most other fields.

Doctors have extreme debt and work crazy hours, teachers get way too little, manual labor is very tough on the body, journalism is dead etc. - it seems to me that everyone i know just "has a hard time" because of information-overload, 24/7 connection, lowered real wages etc. I.e systemic issues at the core.

That said i also want to get more zen, cut back, transition to more resilience - but tech is not uniquely bad, and while i also have dreams about transitioning to more entrepreneurial roles or "moving into nature" - i still can enjoy "the chaos" of modern development / design - and this really is the key i think: to accept the mess, the imperfection, that no one knows what the hell they are doing in most sectors.

Drop the fake self imposed yuppie consumer self policing and perfectionism mindset and just accept that we live in a crazy part of history where everything is obsolete after 5 minutes, so just do what you find acceptable, try to scrape some money together and remember to appreciate the fact that at least you are in a sector where it's pretty easy to be an entrepreneur if you want to - compared to a lot of other people who have no idea about how to get started or jump ship.

Years ago if everything went awry i would stress out, be afraid of angry clients, be angry at myself - today i relax, i am interested and laugh at the complexity, and if someones angry i don't care, the world is crazy, we are monkeys living in a world not made for our biology, it's future tech dystopia/utopia right now, no one is able to piece something together that works for a long time anyway, it's mostly not my fault, but i still try to do my best. This mindset has helped more than a lot.

Re: I no longer build software

#234

Post by plazmatic » Mon, Sep 21, 2020, 1:21 PM UTC

chpmrc wrote: post #208

DarkWiiPlayer wrote: post #168

It seems like nowadays you just can't make money building interesting things anymore. Most of the available programming work is really just writing glue code to make big software systems work as intended, to the point where it can feel more like writing configuration files than actual programming. Put simply, 98% of programming these days is scripting. On the other hand, you have lots of fun things one can do with co…

I can order a comfy car anywhere I am with the tap of a button. I can order food from hundreds of restaurants and have it delivered in less than 30 mins with the tap of a button. I can book flights and hotels with the tap of a button. I can play with friends in virtual reality and actually sweat. I can watch a live stream of SpaceX launching reusable rockets in space. I could buy a car that is almost fully "self driv…

All this, yet the world is unquestionably getting worse.

Crazy times.

Re: I no longer build software

#235

Post by cwoolfe » Mon, Sep 21, 2020, 1:21 PM UTC

I'll seek to balance this conversation by providing another perspective. I've been working in the software industry for 10 years. I think it's a bit extreme to dismiss the industry entirely because of your experience or because it isn't what you thought it would be. It's possible to find a company that is a better fit, allowing you to do programming in a way you enjoy. It's also possible to start your own company doing it a better way. I worked as a freelancer on my own terms for awhile, and frankly, the pay was terrible and the 'freedom' wasn't all it's imagined to be; you still have to work for somebody if you want to get paid. Honestly, I've been much happier in corporations, especially ones that value teamwork, and camaraderie.

Re: I no longer build software

#236

Post by miltondts » Mon, Sep 21, 2020, 1:22 PM UTC

vbsteven wrote: post #98

read_if_gay_ wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Today it's just digital plumbing and dealing with all sorts of issues that are not creative. The sheer complexity is frankly absurd as well. Is this not a contradiction to you?

I feel the same way. The plumbing required has become so complex these last few years (if you use new technology). 10 years ago we uploaded the server/backend binary to a VM, installed postgres/mysql and configured nginx/haproxy as a reverse proxy/ssl termination. Now, if you want to deploy a modern SPA while using some buzzwords like k8s and devops you need: * complex frontend build process with things like webpack…

All this for something that can be handled by a single server. This constant waste of time and energy, both the devs' and the machines', is what bothers me the most. I'm constantly reminded of the quote "anybody can build a bridge, but it takes an engineering to build one that barely stands". Maybe I should go into games or embedded.

Re: I no longer build software

#237

Post by matthewmacleod » Mon, Sep 21, 2020, 1:23 PM UTC

notacoward wrote: post #125

Totally on board with not building software any more. In fact, at 55 this is my last week of it. For real. Basically, everything sucks more about building software nowadays more than I remember it sucking before, from the mere mechanics of navigating through an obscenely large pseudo-object-oriented codebase to the WRONG constructs/idioms people use to build distributed systems to the way software is packaged and dep…

It goes without saying that your feelings are personal ones, totally valid, and nobody can really question them.

I'm 20 years behind you, and I don't know what effect that will have on my views. But I don't really recognise the picture you're painting. Compared to the first steps I took as a developer about 15 years ago, almost everything about software development seems better to me. I find developing software to be easier, more consistent, and less frustrating than it used to be. Good development practices—things like testing, CI, coding standards and so on—seem more prevalent than they used to be. It's easier to get code out to production than it ever was. Everything in the ecosystem—like tooling, libraries, and services—feel far more open, consistent, and accessible than they used to.

I am almost certain that on the whole I spend a far greater proportion of my time now actually writing code that does interesting things, as opposed to code that hacks together some junk to try and make it work with other junk.

I think I'd draw the conclusion that everybody's opinion on how the industry works is going to be heavily influenced by their individual experiences. Maybe I just enjoy software right now because I've now got the technical competence and confidence to avoid some of the frustrations that I experienced earlier in my career, and in another 20 years I'll be right there with you lamenting the state of the industry. Who knows?

Re: I no longer build software

#238

Post by jedimastert » Mon, Sep 21, 2020, 1:23 PM UTC

My family actually has a long history of woodworking and furniture making (my last name means woodsmen, several generations of at least hobby woodworking, etc.) and as soon as I can move into a house (we were going to before the apocalypse but credit requirements shot up and being poor earlier in life has lifelong consequences) I'm going to pick up a few tools and work down Rex Kreuger's Woodworking for Humans series.

That's not to say that I've lost my joy of making computers do my bidding (yet, I suppose...), I just also really enjoy working with my hands.

Re: I no longer build software

#239

Post by mythz » Mon, Sep 21, 2020, 1:23 PM UTC

Seems to be a heavy "all modern software development sucks" vibe in this thread, when the issue is more "software I get paid to write sucks". What software would you write if you could write whatever you wanted using whatever language/technology you wanted?

Unless all the joy gets sucked out beforehand, pretty sure I'm going to move to be developing Mobile Apps after I retire. It was the most fun I've had writing Apps & my kids loved playing with them.

We're now able to target super computers in everyone's pocket with an unprecedented array of capabilities using sophisticated high-level productive languages & tools with effortless access to global distribution, we've never had it this good.

Re: I no longer build software

#240

Post by plazmatic » Mon, Sep 21, 2020, 1:23 PM UTC

cpursley wrote: post #232

fxtentacle wrote: post #202

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I believe the main thing that changed is that 10 years ago, "building software" meant you would work with (presumably reasonable) engineers. Nowadays, it means you do web busywork for some newly rich kid chasing a startup lifestyle, who may or may not have any idea about what's easy/difficult possible/impossible. Also, the whole industry has been strongly commercialized. Before, people would share source code on the…

Your overall tone is negative and elitist. Thee $300 supermarket bike (I have one and put over 40 miles on it weekly and it's help up fine for four years) provides access to folks who otherwise can't afford the fancy $1,500 aluminium/carbon machines. Fancy bikes are still getting made and even getting better. Newly rich kid or VC funded startups distributes money from wealthy people to an every growing software indus…

You have no data to support "the pie has increased in size and BECOME MUCH MORE INCLUSIVE." Become much more inclusive?

You're crazy.