The Social Dilemma • Hacker News Board

Re: The Social Dilemma

#221

Post by app4soft » Mon, Sep 21, 2020, 4:34 AM UTC

codysc wrote: post #3

I just watched this last night. A lot of the content will already be well known to the HN audience. There was one big light-bulb moment for me. One of the speakers was clarifying the "If you're not paying then you are the product" idea. He refined it to, (rough quote), "Changes to your behavior and actions are the product" That distinction made the insidiousness much more clear than the former statement.

> "If you're not paying then you are the product" idea

To be honest, "Even if you're paying you are the product too".[0,1]

[0] https://time.com/5596033/lawsuit-apple-selling-itunes-listen...

[1] https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2019/05/28/its-mid...

Re: The Social Dilemma

#222

Post by aaron695 » Mon, Sep 21, 2020, 4:36 AM UTC

foxfired wrote: post #50

The film does play a major role. Many of us here on HN don't even have an face/insta/twi/tube account. We've known about this for years. But explaining it to the layperson makes you sound like you are paranoid. The movie explains it very well. (although they omit Netflix as a culprit). Here is one thing that I have a hard time explaining to people. Fun is the enemy. Or at least the enemy is disguised as. When you sha…

> Many of us here on HN don't even have an face/insta/twi/tube account. We've known about this for years.

No. HN does not get it at all. You never see coherent explanations on HN.

This movie got it pretty well. Far better than HN.

I think people on HN can see there are problems with Social Media, they are smarter than the general population, and technical, so know alternatives.

They see the smoke and can act correctly be they don't get the problem at all.

Re: The Social Dilemma

#223

Post by shaklee3 » Mon, Sep 21, 2020, 4:52 AM UTC

ducttapecrown wrote: post #188

mavsman wrote: post #186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It never occurred to me until now that Hacker News is free and this statement could be applied here as well, though I'm not exactly sure in what way.

YCombinator companies advertise here for jobs?

All the time. You'll frequently see front page titles like "My company (YC19) Hiring Engineers"

Re: The Social Dilemma

#224

Post by kordlessagain » Mon, Sep 21, 2020, 4:54 AM UTC

mattgreenrocks wrote: post #99

ppod wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also there is an underlying class thing going on with "you are the product". Choosing to pay for a service is not just an equal alternative to a free service for most people. Most people have to work hard to afford paid services, many of them at low wages. Sneering at people who choose to use a free service rather than sell their time for $15 an hour is not a great look.

Can’t they just not use the thing? Usually this critique is applied to social media, which is not an essential human need. Ubiquitous and handy, yes. But not essential.

The choice to not use a device which is intended to elicit interaction is not available to all, and in that case the only people that can make the choice are the others that know better.

Re: The Social Dilemma

#225

Post by adamsea » Mon, Sep 21, 2020, 4:59 AM UTC

godelski wrote: post #216

FooHentai wrote: post #187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Putting aside for a moment the much tighter feedback loop and way more in-depth metrics that allow much greater tuning and targeting... With broadcast media, you can turn off the TV, radio, or put down the magazine. The social punishment cost of this is limited - If someone asked you about current affairs or the latest show etc, you might have to deal with being out of the loop. But with smartphones and social media,…

Simply, your TV doesn't turn back on and tell you that all your friends are watching a certain show. When you turn your TV off, it is off.

Don’t give them ideas! ;)

Re: The Social Dilemma

#226

Post by adamsea » Mon, Sep 21, 2020, 4:59 AM UTC

shajznnckfke wrote: post #77

gundmc wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "Changes to your behavior and actions..." Isn't this the definition (or goal) of all advertising? I don't see the connection to the first half of the statement tying it to free products and services. There are plenty of paid services that are riddled with ads as well. Movies, Cable TV, airline flights, etc. The fact is that people and organizations are _constantly_ trying to influence your behavior. It's not obviou…

Not just advertising, but any communication. You wrote this comment to influence me and everyone who else who read it.

You would reduce it all to atoms.

Re: The Social Dilemma

#227

Post by sriram_malhar » Mon, Sep 21, 2020, 5:00 AM UTC

closeparen wrote: post #211

sriram_malhar wrote: post #202

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That would mean your parents and you are not on very familiar terms. Perhaps that is the situation for you, but it is by no means generalisable. I live pretty well without any personal social media. I call friends and family often, while being mindful of their time. Voice calls are wonderful.

I no longer use anything with posts and likes and a feed, but direct and small-group messaging are pretty important among my peers. May I ask what generation are these people with whom you use only voice (and maybe snail mail)?

That's a good distinction between diff types of messaging.

I use email and messages as well, but the voice call is the big component. Generation-wise, it is from 7yrs old (nieces) to 90yrs old (no surprise there; oldies love to chat).

Re: The Social Dilemma

#228

Post by patchtopic » Mon, Sep 21, 2020, 5:00 AM UTC

anongoesprivate wrote: post #210

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https://thenib.com/mister-gotcha/ :-)

Re: The Social Dilemma

#229

Post by pseudalopex » Mon, Sep 21, 2020, 5:02 AM UTC

madjam002 wrote: post #71

I don't understand this movie. I agree with the sentiment that social media is bad for people, especially youngsters, but I fail to see how advertising and corporations are to blame for the UX practices of social media websites (notifications, infinite scroll, liking posts etc), especially to the level that the movie makes it out to be. Sure, it is in Facebook's best interest to keep you on the site for as long as po…

I don't think they claimed only social media has problems or advertising is the only reason it has them. Social media is where the problems meet and affect the world most. And Facebook was always designed for advertising.[1]

WhatsApp has large groups anyone can join. SMS doesn't.

[1] https://www.businessinsider.com/facebooks-first-ever-ad-sale...

Re: The Social Dilemma

#230

Post by adamsea » Mon, Sep 21, 2020, 5:05 AM UTC

hervature wrote: post #198

closeparen wrote: post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s no longer socially acceptable to make unprompted PSTN voice calls, unless you and the recipient are on very familiar terms. Even with my parents, we always arrange a time via messaging first.

Ok, and where exactly is Whatsapp a vital life necessity in your world of messaging before calling? Those also aren't forms of meaningful social interaction. I assume you again use messaging and/or voice to set up the actual interactions such as Christmas (or whatever you celebrate) and family get-togethers. I'm assuming you don't show up to those events and talk to your loved ones via Whatsapp. I don't have social m…

What if someone lives abroad and is very close with a large extended family (plus immediate family), all of whom regularly communicate on WhatsApp?

Probably not uncommon as Whatsapp was at first widely used outside the US or for folks living in the US to be in touch with family abroad.

Very often one person is not able to change an entire family dynamic. Sure, they could not use WhatsApp, but then they’d rarely talk with their family!

Point being, we don’t know the poster’s specific circumstances enough to offer any sort of informed critique.

That said, the question of generalizing from the poster’s experience is, imho, a valid one.

If we want to get all analytical about it, that’s my two cents ;).

Which is to say, my opinion is barely worth the paper it’s written on.

And since this is all on a screen ... ;)