Trump’s WeChat curbs halted by judge on free speech concerns • Hacker News Board

Re: Trump’s WeChat curbs halted by judge on free speech concerns

#151

Post by mrtksn » Sun, Sep 20, 2020, 5:31 PM UTC

annexrichmond wrote: post #102

I think it's easy to say the ban doesn't make sense when it is perhaps a preventative measure. We have seen social networks take over others many times in terms of popularity. If TikTok and WeChat's usage becomes more widespread in the voting population of the US, they would have a lot of influence by controlling what kind of content its users sees; e.g., FB has been criticized many times for this, namely performing…

>The difference between TikTok and WeChat and FB/Google/Twitter is obvious: the former are to some degree controlled by China and the latter are private entities.

It is documented fact that FB, Google and the rest are tapped by US intelligence agencies. Anyone remembers Snowden? We know for fact that pretty much every single global US network works with the US government, but when comes to TikTok and WeChat something yet to be proven(I am sure they do but the evidence is weaker than the evidence if US internet companies working with the US government on surveillance). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PRISM_(surveillance_program)

EU was trying to fix this through GDPR and such but US seems to desperately wanting to embrace the Chinese model and with US cultural lead, this will inevitably open the way to other governments ban FB, Google and the others because if TikTok is a national security risk to the USA then obviously Facebook and Google are to them. Probably Amazon and all other ad networks too. Anything that can be started from a dorm room will no longer be able to go global.

This will lead to a world where if you want to do a global project you will have to incorporate in every country you want to operate. It is even possible that internet to break up in patches and operating even a forum website becomes like Coca-Cola opening a plant in another country.

It is a very bleak future for humanity if you ask me. Can be good for local businesses though.

I wish the US went the EU path(regulating data handling) instead of Russa/China path(banning) so we could still have global networks and kids in their dorms could continue creating products with global impact.

What a shame.

Re: Trump’s WeChat curbs halted by judge on free speech concerns

#152

Post by politician » Sun, Sep 20, 2020, 5:32 PM UTC

tanilama wrote: post #150

politician wrote: post #47

All sovereign nations reserve the right to regulate foreign goods, vessels, diplomats, currency, and peoples distinctly from their native counterparts. Apps are truly no different.

In principle, but it doesn't mean such practices can be acted out unchecked in US. Right now, all things happened according to the slated procedures, including the challenge in court. Trump and his supporters shouldn't expect otherwise, if they truly believe in rule of law.

Agreed.

Re: Trump’s WeChat curbs halted by judge on free speech concerns

#153

Post by m3kw9 » Sun, Sep 20, 2020, 5:32 PM UTC

Theory is that both of these platforms seem to be a threat to trumps election. For tiktok he has to balance banning all his fans. So he tries to control the data, effective or not. I bet he could control moderation and crack down of news opposed to him on tiktok. This is “national security” of course. Politicians play a meta game.

Re: Trump’s WeChat curbs halted by judge on free speech concerns

#154

Post by politician » Sun, Sep 20, 2020, 5:32 PM UTC

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #118

politician wrote: post #47

All sovereign nations reserve the right to regulate foreign goods, vessels, diplomats, currency, and peoples distinctly from their native counterparts. Apps are truly no different.

Sovereign nations also have the right to set rules and laws that restrict the actions of their executives. The people who govern America are subject to a lot of laws that restrict their power to channel sovereign rights, and for good reason.

Agreed.

Re: Trump’s WeChat curbs halted by judge on free speech concerns

#155

Post by jonathannat » Sun, Sep 20, 2020, 5:33 PM UTC

annexrichmond wrote: post #102

I think it's easy to say the ban doesn't make sense when it is perhaps a preventative measure. We have seen social networks take over others many times in terms of popularity. If TikTok and WeChat's usage becomes more widespread in the voting population of the US, they would have a lot of influence by controlling what kind of content its users sees; e.g., FB has been criticized many times for this, namely performing…

Overseas Chinese users can still use the chat function in Alipay to chat, no problem. As well as a host of other services like skype, facetime, etc.

Also, the Chinese communist party/government has recently decided to tighten the noose on its private companies: https://www.nytimes.com/2020/09/17/business/china-communist-... which makes wechat a national threat.

Re: Trump’s WeChat curbs halted by judge on free speech concerns

#156

Post by annexrichmond » Sun, Sep 20, 2020, 5:36 PM UTC

Dahoon wrote: post #129

annexrichmond wrote: post #102

I think it's easy to say the ban doesn't make sense when it is perhaps a preventative measure. We have seen social networks take over others many times in terms of popularity. If TikTok and WeChat's usage becomes more widespread in the voting population of the US, they would have a lot of influence by controlling what kind of content its users sees; e.g., FB has been criticized many times for this, namely performing…

>The difference between TikTok and WeChat and FB/Google/Twitter is obvious: the former are to some degree controlled by China and the latter are private entities. How is for example Facebook better because it isn't somehow tied in to the US government? On the one hand the state still have access to all the data from Facebook it wants (NSA, warrants) but on the other they have a hard time protecting its users privacy…

Yeah these are real problems, I agree. And US citizens should continue to put pressure on their politicians to pass more privacy-related legislation

But my point wasn't really about data collection, it was about influence and content-control. People are readily influenced by memes, ads, headlines, etc which is why such platforms are so problematic because people are not comfortable with how much influence they have and how easily misinformation is spread.

What am I less comfortable with is leaving a path open for China to have that same kind of control in the US as FB/Google/etc, but without being subject to US laws like our private entities are.

Re: Trump’s WeChat curbs halted by judge on free speech concerns

#157

Post by politician » Sun, Sep 20, 2020, 5:37 PM UTC

supernova87a wrote: post #112

politician wrote: post #47

All sovereign nations reserve the right to regulate foreign goods, vessels, diplomats, currency, and peoples distinctly from their native counterparts. Apps are truly no different.

If this is your legitimately held view (and I agree to some extent with the core idea), at least let's not be naive about it. Don't think that this was a well-reasoned decision with careful justification about the causes, potential, solutions, and impacts on US economics and society. It was a guy asking "what can we do to create some leverage over this adversary I don't like? (and was just told about yesterday)" Don'…

The powers delegated to the Executive don’t generally require a good explanation. “Principles” are handled at the ballot box.

Re: Trump’s WeChat curbs halted by judge on free speech concerns

#158

Post by belltaco » Sun, Sep 20, 2020, 5:38 PM UTC

amelius wrote: post #115

aphextron wrote: post #42

From the beginning of this I never understood how there could be any legal basis whatsoever for the ban. Apparently that's because there was none.

If China can block Facebook, Google, etc., then why can't the US block Chinese apps?

Because there is no law in the Constitution saying that "If China can block Facebook, Google, etc., then the US can block Chinese apps"

Congress can pass such a law and the President can sign it.

Re: Trump’s WeChat curbs halted by judge on free speech concerns

#159

Post by Causality1 » Sun, Sep 20, 2020, 5:39 PM UTC

pizza wrote: post #41

Causality1 wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Those are valid concerns. I also think the opposite side of that coin is worth considering. That is to say, should we allow WeChat to gain an even greater foothold on American soil or should we minimize total damage by cutting it off now instead of later? As for me, I believe allowing WeChat to become anything like the structural institution it is in China in any part of the US would be a mistake. Imagine if Google w…

You really need to explain your point more thoroughly. - "allow WeChat to gain an even greater foothold on American soil" - does this mean have more users? - "minimize total damage" - it would be good if you articulated the damage being done - "Imagine if Google was as controlled by and as much of a cheerleader for the US government as WeChat is for the Chinese" - according to Julian Assange, https://wikileaks.org/go…

Yes. A ban now will be less disruptive than a ban later when WeChat has far more American users. The damage I refer to is the damage to to the lives and habits of WeChat's current American and immigrant users caused by WeChat's removal.

Re: Trump’s WeChat curbs halted by judge on free speech concerns

#160

Post by annexrichmond » Sun, Sep 20, 2020, 5:40 PM UTC

mrtksn wrote: post #151

annexrichmond wrote: post #102

I think it's easy to say the ban doesn't make sense when it is perhaps a preventative measure. We have seen social networks take over others many times in terms of popularity. If TikTok and WeChat's usage becomes more widespread in the voting population of the US, they would have a lot of influence by controlling what kind of content its users sees; e.g., FB has been criticized many times for this, namely performing…

>The difference between TikTok and WeChat and FB/Google/Twitter is obvious: the former are to some degree controlled by China and the latter are private entities. It is documented fact that FB, Google and the rest are tapped by US intelligence agencies. Anyone remembers Snowden? We know for fact that pretty much every single global US network works with the US government, but when comes to TikTok and WeChat something…

Ok I might've been a little unclear because I received a couple replies now about privacy and that wasn't really my point, so apologies for that. This is what I said to other person: --

> Yeah these are real problems, I agree. And US citizens should continue to put pressure on their politicians to pass more privacy-related legislation

> But my point wasn't really about data collection, it was about influence and content-control. People are readily influenced by memes, ads, headlines, etc which is why such platforms are so problematic because people are not comfortable with how much influence they have and how easily misinformation is spread.

> What am I less comfortable with is leaving a path open for China to have that same kind of control in the US as FB/Google/etc, but without being subject to US laws like our private entities are.