Trump’s WeChat curbs halted by judge on free speech concerns • Hacker News Board

Re: Trump’s WeChat curbs halted by judge on free speech concerns

#51

Post by loceng » Sun, Sep 20, 2020, 4:45 PM UTC

wombatmobile wrote: post #16

When trying to understand China's commercial policies which America is supposedly retaliating against, consider that China has experienced a different mercantile history to America. America has never been invaded by foreign gunships and forced to allow foreign merchants to import opium to addict its citizens in order to fix their own countries balance of payments problems. Opium Wars https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opi…

I had an interesting conversation with a Lyft driver, they were clearly from China from the knowledge/insights they shared. It was their belief that China's populations are much more densely populated, the family unit remaining - parents living with their children and their parents - because the previous generations didn't have pensions to rely on; another pressure I imagine is that I don't believe health care and other costs are covered in China?

Re: Trump’s WeChat curbs halted by judge on free speech concerns

#52

Post by acituan » Sun, Sep 20, 2020, 4:45 PM UTC

publicola1990 wrote: post #14

gist wrote: post #7

> who argued that prohibitions would violate the free-speech rights of millions of Chinese-speaking Americans who rely on it for communication. By the same thinking Comcast should not be able to cut off someone's internet service (for not paying a bill) because doing so would violate that person's free speech rights (the ability to send email). Ditto for hosting providers, registrars and so on. In this case the gover…

But government did not establish the precise nature of imminent "national security" threat by these apps, nor did establish that these apps violated American laws.

Just to play devil’s advocate, I can imagine a game theoretic scenario in which revealing what we know about let’s say a deliberate cryptographic vulnerability will potentially make the other party switch to another vulnerability we don’t know, or reveal our capabilities in discovering the specific class of such vulnerabilities, therefore withholding information is advantageous. I.e they can’t go “nobody tell China, but this is the precise reason” in certain scenarios. Not saying that is necessarily the case here, but definitely a possibility.

Re: Trump’s WeChat curbs halted by judge on free speech concerns

#53

Post by CydeWeys » Sun, Sep 20, 2020, 4:45 PM UTC

aphextron wrote: post #42

From the beginning of this I never understood how there could be any legal basis whatsoever for the ban. Apparently that's because there was none.

Like so many other attempted Trump executive actions, it really needs to be passed by Congress. Trump doesn't even have anyone competent in the White House telling him what he can and can't do.

Re: Trump’s WeChat curbs halted by judge on free speech concerns

#54

Post by softwaredoug » Sun, Sep 20, 2020, 4:47 PM UTC

kolanos wrote: post #48

wombatmobile wrote: post #16

When trying to understand China's commercial policies which America is supposedly retaliating against, consider that China has experienced a different mercantile history to America. America has never been invaded by foreign gunships and forced to allow foreign merchants to import opium to addict its citizens in order to fix their own countries balance of payments problems. Opium Wars https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opi…

Americans don't need to try to understand the effects of mercantilism. They were subject to the same draconian economic policies by the British Empire. This is largely what prompted the American Revolution. [0] [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thirteen_Colonies#Economic_pol...

I think it's more accurate to say the US had a temporary (1 decade) diversion from the norm of "Benign Neglect"[1] which pissed off Americans to the point they sought explicit Independence. China has a much longer cultural history of being "self contained" (and suspicious of outsiders) which was deeply reinforced in the 19th century Opium Wars, etc.

1 - http://community.weber.edu/weberreads/salutary_or_benign_neg...

Re: Trump’s WeChat curbs halted by judge on free speech concerns

#55

Post by [deleted] » Sun, Sep 20, 2020, 4:48 PM UTC

onelovetwo wrote: post #30

wombatmobile wrote: post #16

When trying to understand China's commercial policies which America is supposedly retaliating against, consider that China has experienced a different mercantile history to America. America has never been invaded by foreign gunships and forced to allow foreign merchants to import opium to addict its citizens in order to fix their own countries balance of payments problems. Opium Wars https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opi…

So the argument is china was once invaded by foreign gunships (not american) so they should be allowed to ban american companies (Google, Youtube, Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, Whatsapp, Netflix & hundreds more) but allowed to operate any company they want in the U.S?

[deleted]

Re: Trump’s WeChat curbs halted by judge on free speech concerns

#56

Post by mumblemumble » Sun, Sep 20, 2020, 4:49 PM UTC

politician wrote: post #47

All sovereign nations reserve the right to regulate foreign goods, vessels, diplomats, currency, and peoples distinctly from their native counterparts. Apps are truly no different.

What a sovereign nation, as an abstract entity, can do, is distinct from what its executive leader can do.

The only time they happen to coincide is, by definition, in the case of autocracy.

Re: Trump’s WeChat curbs halted by judge on free speech concerns

#57

Post by TheNorthman » Sun, Sep 20, 2020, 4:49 PM UTC

onelovetwo wrote: post #30

wombatmobile wrote: post #16

When trying to understand China's commercial policies which America is supposedly retaliating against, consider that China has experienced a different mercantile history to America. America has never been invaded by foreign gunships and forced to allow foreign merchants to import opium to addict its citizens in order to fix their own countries balance of payments problems. Opium Wars https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opi…

So the argument is china was once invaded by foreign gunships (not american) so they should be allowed to ban american companies (Google, Youtube, Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, Whatsapp, Netflix & hundreds more) but allowed to operate any company they want in the U.S?

Perhaps OP wasn't making a normative statement but rather speculating on how the past could materially affect the present?

Re: Trump’s WeChat curbs halted by judge on free speech concerns

#58

Post by YarickR2 » Sun, Sep 20, 2020, 4:49 PM UTC

conception wrote: post #33

12xo wrote: post #26

By far the most egregious overreach of Federal authority in recent memory. Noting about this is reasonable. Its 100% the act of a desperate and weak minded despot who knows nothing about technology but acts out of ignorance and pettiness. A truly illegal and Anti-American act.

If you view this from the perspective of https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foundations_of_Geopolitics - it’s perfectly rational. Creating tensions between China and the US is a tremendous win for Russia.

OMG could you please stop quoting this bullshit .It's on the same level as Dulles plan of CIA fame https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dulles%27_Plan

Re: Trump’s WeChat curbs halted by judge on free speech concerns

#59

Post by neither_color » Sun, Sep 20, 2020, 4:50 PM UTC

wombatmobile wrote: post #16

When trying to understand China's commercial policies which America is supposedly retaliating against, consider that China has experienced a different mercantile history to America. America has never been invaded by foreign gunships and forced to allow foreign merchants to import opium to addict its citizens in order to fix their own countries balance of payments problems. Opium Wars https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opi…

I understand the sentimentality of your argument but fail to see the logic. So because China was treated badly by other countries 150 years ago they should ban our apps while we shouldnt ban theirs?

Re: Trump’s WeChat curbs halted by judge on free speech concerns

#60

Post by kqvamxurcagg » Sun, Sep 20, 2020, 4:50 PM UTC

wombatmobile wrote: post #16

When trying to understand China's commercial policies which America is supposedly retaliating against, consider that China has experienced a different mercantile history to America. America has never been invaded by foreign gunships and forced to allow foreign merchants to import opium to addict its citizens in order to fix their own countries balance of payments problems. Opium Wars https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opi…

The Opium Wars happened long before Pearl Harbour, yet America is happy to do business with the Japanese. Actually the Opium Wars is often referenced more by Western commentators than the Chinese, for whom the event is simply history and irrelevant to modern events.