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Survivor of CIA Torture and Rendition Supports Assange at Extradition Trial

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Re: Survivor of CIA Torture and Rendition Supports Assange at Extradition Trial

#121

Post by ftfp »

lawnchair_larry wrote: post #101
pftf wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Voting doesn't work for the most important issues, where human rights are being severely violated. It took a civil war for the end of slavery to begin in the US. It took decades of terrorism for the Irish to stop being as subjugated by the British in Northern Ireland. And so on. History indicates that what you really need in the US right now is some violent, direct action against those committing human rights atrocit…

This is a pretty disgusting thing to advocate.

Just to be clear here, are you saying that you're more disgusted by the idea of violent, direct action against those committing human rights atrocities?

Rather than by those committing the human rights atrocities?

Re: Survivor of CIA Torture and Rendition Supports Assange at Extradition Trial

#122

Post by stanski »

Not trying to be extra cynical but it sounds like they should've just disappeared the guy after torturing him. I wonder if the people responsible aren't kicking themselves now for not doing it.

Unless there was a lot media or government attention in this case, it'd be quite easy to point the blame at some terrorist group in Afghanistan and walk away.

Re: Survivor of CIA Torture and Rendition Supports Assange at Extradition Trial

#123

Post by ftfp »

jariel wrote: post #114
pftf wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Voting doesn't work for the most important issues, where human rights are being severely violated. It took a civil war for the end of slavery to begin in the US. It took decades of terrorism for the Irish to stop being as subjugated by the British in Northern Ireland. And so on. History indicates that what you really need in the US right now is some violent, direct action against those committing human rights atrocit…

Talking about someone having 'been beaten' by US while China literally puts 100's of thousands in concentration camps merely for being of a specific ethnicity ... as their organs are nabbed by the elite via 'body part' black markets. All these issues have to be put in context: the scale, the type of abuses, the proportionality, the context, the risk etc.. 9/11 was a 'very scary' moment in history, the likelihood that…

All this comment shows me is that some people will defend any horrible manner of things as long as it's done by 'their side'.

Re: Survivor of CIA Torture and Rendition Supports Assange at Extradition Trial

#124

Post by ftfp »

arcticbull wrote: post #86
Sargos wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Until our governmental system is overhauled to allow for more democracy and less powerful individuals then the citizens really don't bare much responsibility for the actions of our masters. I live in a gerrymandered district with no real way to vote for my preferences and it doesn't look like it will get better anytime soon.

I have a really hard time with that answer. In a democracy each individual is directly and personally responsible for their government. That's the power and the responsibility associated with picking your leadership. You get credit for the good and the blame for the bad. In an autocracy, it's murkier.

So you are just going to ignore the gerrymandering part of their comment then?

Re: Survivor of CIA Torture and Rendition Supports Assange at Extradition Trial

#125

Post by jariel »

sudosysgen wrote: post #118
jariel wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Talking about someone having 'been beaten' by US while China literally puts 100's of thousands in concentration camps merely for being of a specific ethnicity ... as their organs are nabbed by the elite via 'body part' black markets. All these issues have to be put in context: the scale, the type of abuses, the proportionality, the context, the risk etc.. 9/11 was a 'very scary' moment in history, the likelihood that…

[flagged]

Proportionality is relevant in this, but I won't bother to respond to your fiction regarding historical events.

You might want to ask the mass murdering regimes of those regions, many of whom continue to operate today, about those issues.

Re: Survivor of CIA Torture and Rendition Supports Assange at Extradition Trial

#126

Post by Sargos »

arcticbull wrote: post #86
Sargos wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Until our governmental system is overhauled to allow for more democracy and less powerful individuals then the citizens really don't bare much responsibility for the actions of our masters. I live in a gerrymandered district with no real way to vote for my preferences and it doesn't look like it will get better anytime soon.

I have a really hard time with that answer. In a democracy each individual is directly and personally responsible for their government. That's the power and the responsibility associated with picking your leadership. You get credit for the good and the blame for the bad. In an autocracy, it's murkier.

I haven't really picked many of my leaders. Most of the government is appointed by the president so I have no say in that. I only get two choices for president neither of which represent me much at all. My congressional district is gerrymandered so I don't get a say there. I have objectively close to 0 influence in how my government works or the decisions it makes.

If we ever fix our government to add more democracy or operate more on the opinions of the citizens then I might feel connected to what my government does but as it stands now there's very little connection between me and others around me and the government that takes actions on the world stage.

Re: Survivor of CIA Torture and Rendition Supports Assange at Extradition Trial

#127

Post by ftfp »

jariel wrote: post #125
sudosysgen wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

Proportionality is relevant in this, but I won't bother to respond to your fiction regarding historical events. You might want to ask the mass murdering regimes of those regions, many of whom continue to operate today, about those issues.

You've got your head in the sand.

Do remember to wash the all the blood of those stars and stripes once you've finished waving them about.

Re: Survivor of CIA Torture and Rendition Supports Assange at Extradition Trial

#128

Post by arcticbull »

ftfp wrote: post #124
arcticbull wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have a really hard time with that answer. In a democracy each individual is directly and personally responsible for their government. That's the power and the responsibility associated with picking your leadership. You get credit for the good and the blame for the bad. In an autocracy, it's murkier.

So you are just going to ignore the gerrymandering part of their comment then?

Yeah, that's true, gerrymandering is problematic and does stifle people's ability to express their political voice. Does gerrymandering make the US less of a democracy, then? I don't have an answer to that question, so curious your thoughts.

You were definitely right to call me out on that.

Re: Survivor of CIA Torture and Rendition Supports Assange at Extradition Trial

#129

Post by aYsY4dDQ2NrcNzA »

pravda wrote: post #95
arcticbull wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

John Adams and George Washington believed a two-party state was a major threat to democracy, and it's pretty easy to see why. The reality is Democrats and Republicans are about 6 inches apart on every single major issue. Compare the platforms of the "left" and "right" here to other major democracies worldwide, and you'll see. Things are a little different with the current administration, but even that, the concrete p…

Gore Vidal pointed this out many years ago: "There is only one party in the United States, the Property Party … and it has two right wings: Republican and Democrat. Republicans are a bit stupider, more rigid, more doctrinaire in their laissez-faire capitalism than the Democrats, who are cuter, prettier, a bit more corrupt — until recently … and more willing than the Republicans to make small adjustments when the poor…

I really wonder what Vidal would be saying today.

I guess it would probably be something similar to Noam Chomsky, who is voting Democrat this year because the policy differences are so stark.

https://the.ink/p/noam-chomsky-wants-you-to-vote-for

Re: Survivor of CIA Torture and Rendition Supports Assange at Extradition Trial

#130

Post by sudosysgen »

jariel wrote: post #125
sudosysgen wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

Proportionality is relevant in this, but I won't bother to respond to your fiction regarding historical events. You might want to ask the mass murdering regimes of those regions, many of whom continue to operate today, about those issues.

You mean, like the mass murder of millions of innocents the US has perpetrated abroad?

If you believe in proportionality and not utilitarianism, I shudder to think what you find commensurate. Certainly much more than I would.

How many people did Vietnam murder since the end of the war? How many did Laos?

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