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Survivor of CIA Torture and Rendition Supports Assange at Extradition Trial

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Re: Survivor of CIA Torture and Rendition Supports Assange at Extradition Trial

#101

Post by lawnchair_larry »

pftf wrote: post #80
sandworm101 wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thats the problem with democracy: the people own the mistakes of those they elect. Dont like what they do? Vote them out of office. Arrest them. Jail them. If the system fails, fix the system.

Voting doesn't work for the most important issues, where human rights are being severely violated. It took a civil war for the end of slavery to begin in the US. It took decades of terrorism for the Irish to stop being as subjugated by the British in Northern Ireland. And so on. History indicates that what you really need in the US right now is some violent, direct action against those committing human rights atrocit…

This is a pretty disgusting thing to advocate.

Re: Survivor of CIA Torture and Rendition Supports Assange at Extradition Trial

#102

Post by AsyncAwait »

chupasaurus wrote: post #59
AsyncAwait wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly. A lot of people ask also why Snowden keeps "hiding" in Russia and doesn't come back to face the music. It's because he's not even allowed to use the public good defense per the Espionage Act. As for Assange, the poor man has already suffered enough, what the UN amounts to torture. This is despicable and anyone who is concerned about the Uyghurs, Rohingya etc. should voice a strong opposition to what is happe…

Snowden avoids the prosecution because even on a public trial he will get a life-long sentence since Espionage Act doesn't have an exemption for acting in the public interest.

Right. What did I say differently?

Re: Survivor of CIA Torture and Rendition Supports Assange at Extradition Trial

#103

Post by lawnchair_larry »

arcticbull wrote: post #77
lionkor wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with what you said, yet can't help but think that everyone who knows about this kind of thing and still doesn't think twice about which party to vote for, is responsible in some way. Every american is given a voice, to vote for the best party, the best candidate, based on what they know and believe. Voting is anonymous. You dont have to tell anyone what you voted for. Vote for a third party, or for whatever y…

John Adams and George Washington believed a two-party state was a major threat to democracy, and it's pretty easy to see why. The reality is Democrats and Republicans are about 6 inches apart on every single major issue. Compare the platforms of the "left" and "right" here to other major democracies worldwide, and you'll see. Things are a little different with the current administration, but even that, the concrete p…

> Police in America kill 10X as many people per capita as Canadian police kill.

These kinds of stats are so dishonest. Police in America are subject to 10x more violence per capita as Canadians.

Re: Survivor of CIA Torture and Rendition Supports Assange at Extradition Trial

#104

Post by arcticbull »

lawnchair_larry wrote: post #103
arcticbull wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

John Adams and George Washington believed a two-party state was a major threat to democracy, and it's pretty easy to see why. The reality is Democrats and Republicans are about 6 inches apart on every single major issue. Compare the platforms of the "left" and "right" here to other major democracies worldwide, and you'll see. Things are a little different with the current administration, but even that, the concrete p…

> Police in America kill 10X as many people per capita as Canadian police kill. These kinds of stats are so dishonest. Police in America are subject to 10x more violence per capita as Canadians.

> "Police in America are subject to 10x more violence per capita as Canadians."

Citation needed.

Especially as studies show that increasing militarization of the police force leads to more civilian deaths [1], and the trend towards militarization has been stark and pronounced in the US. [2] The issue is really that the US uses police as customer service for life and as front-line mental health treatment due to lack of proper socialized medicine. They are also trained to shoot first and ask questions later -- to treat everyone as a potential threat to their lives.

However, let's take what you say as fact. This points to a deep failure in society that needs to be addressed. People are products of their society, and if society is more violent in America then some serious introspection needs to be done. Looking at 10X per capita and shrugging it off as "well that's just America for you" is the problem.

[1] https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/usappblog/2018/07/05/evidence-sugges...

[2] https://fee.org/articles/the-militarization-of-americas-poli...

Re: Survivor of CIA Torture and Rendition Supports Assange at Extradition Trial

#105

Post by [deleted] »

lawnchair_larry wrote: post #101
pftf wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Voting doesn't work for the most important issues, where human rights are being severely violated. It took a civil war for the end of slavery to begin in the US. It took decades of terrorism for the Irish to stop being as subjugated by the British in Northern Ireland. And so on. History indicates that what you really need in the US right now is some violent, direct action against those committing human rights atrocit…

This is a pretty disgusting thing to advocate.

[deleted]

Re: Survivor of CIA Torture and Rendition Supports Assange at Extradition Trial

#106

Post by lawnchair_larry »

boomboomsubban wrote: post #100
GOONIMMUNE wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a leftist myself, I can't recall ever talking to another leftist who supported female genital mutilation, or called someone a racist for criticizing it. I think you're talking out your butt

They've developed a false argument. Ayaan Hirsi Ali is a vocal critic of female genital mutilation, but many of her other positions are islamophobic. Positions like "we are at war with Islam and it must be defeated." In reality, I can both oppose female genital mutilation and consider Ayaan Hirsi Ali racist.

Islam isn’t a race. Criticisms of religions are perfectly reasonable and valid positions to hold.

Re: Survivor of CIA Torture and Rendition Supports Assange at Extradition Trial

#107

Post by jhpriestley »

arcticbull wrote: post #96
jhpriestley wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You seem to think that if a party does not accomplish its policy objectives (closing gitmo, DACA) because the other party prevented it from accomplishing those objectives, it does not support them? interesting take :)

In 2009, 2010 and 2011, Obama was President and the House and Senate were both Democratic. Who was stopping Obama from closing GITMO during those three years? This was a campaign promise after all. Did DREAM'ers not exist at this time? GITMO never closed because the US didn't find countries super willing to take in the detainees, and felt it would be "too distasteful" to let them stay in the US proper. Not a good cas…

Clinton was in fact a centrist "third-way" democrat who often compromised or coopted Republican issues, e.g. welfare reform.

Obama was not as much of a centrist but he was obstructed heavily by the opposition.

I'll continue to blame the people who vote 90% in one direction over the ones who vote 90% the other lol.

Edit: you added some specific comments about immigration. This is correct, Democrats are not very pro-immigration. They are more pro-immigration than the GOP, e.g. DACA order vs. DACA repeal, but the two parties are pretty close on immigration. There is a much bigger gap on issues like healthcare.

Re: Survivor of CIA Torture and Rendition Supports Assange at Extradition Trial

#108

Post by lawnchair_larry »

arcticbull wrote: post #81
yodsanklai wrote: post #28

What strikes me with the US is that they can be very progressive on some issues (e.g. lgbt rights), yet totally backward on others (torture, death penalty, mass incarceration and so on...).

The US is not particularly progressive on LGBT rights.

LGBT have equal rights in the US.

Re: Survivor of CIA Torture and Rendition Supports Assange at Extradition Trial

#109

Post by saiya-jin »

squarefoot wrote: post #52
pvaldes wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It’s totally absurd that US can kidnap random people outside their country. kidnap... and assassinate. Is not the US people in any case, is their government. And some of those people seem to have severe and worrying sadistic undercurrents in their personality. As human beings, torturers are a real failure.

> Is not the US people in any case, is their government. This a million times. I'm speaking broadly as I'm not from the US, however this applies pretty much to every country: "People are not their government" should be always considered when criticizing any nation or being criticized by others because of government politics. Identifying people with their government choices is the 1st step towards building hatred that…

Err, NO, in democracy, people ARE the government. Maybe they don't represent you specifically or your friends, but they were voted in by your fellow citizens by majority.

Politicians, bar some exceptions, always represent the worst of given population. Sociopaths, power hungry, fucked up inside, very good presentation / talking. Always thinking how to use given situation and people around them to their advantage, and there can never be too many advantages.

The fact that people keep voting the same 1 / 2 parties over and over is a proof for that - nobody disagrees with them enough, en masse, to vote otherwise (or not vote).

Re: Survivor of CIA Torture and Rendition Supports Assange at Extradition Trial

#110

Post by arcticbull »

lawnchair_larry wrote: post #108
arcticbull wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The US is not particularly progressive on LGBT rights.

LGBT have equal rights in the US.

Not really. More than in some places to be sure.

1. Until June 16, 2020, that you could be fired for being gay or transgender. And that's not even a blanket ruling, as religious institutions in the US are basically exempt from the Civil Rights Act protections.

2. It's still illegal to use one bathroom or another as a transgender person depending on which state you're in.

3. Transgender people are not allowed in the US military.

The list goes on, that's just kinda off the top of my head.

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