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US bans WeChat, TikTok from app stores, threatens shutdowns

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Re: US bans WeChat, TikTok from app stores, threatens shutdowns

#271

Post by xorcist »

ummwhat wrote: post #162
zaksoup wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How come the argument "you can just buy an android phone" doesn't apply to iOS users in the same way "you can just sideload an APK" does to Google play store users? This isn't a rhetorical question, I'm genuinely curious about how people think of these distinctions.

You don't have to "jailbreak" your Android because it wasnt in jail to begin with. Sideloading works straight out of the box.

You do need to turn off signature checking in the security settings, so not completely out of the box.

Given that the application store can be changed to blacklist a certain app, it is not unlikely that the next step is similar changes to the apk installer.

It should also be noted that there are no guarantees that signature checking is optional in all future builds of Android. While there are differences between the iPhone and Android business models, they should also not be overstated. My personal guess is that they will drift closer over time rather than farther apart.

Re: US bans WeChat, TikTok from app stores, threatens shutdowns

#272

Post by entropea »

kevin_thibedeau wrote: post #107
entropea wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Watch the latest Triumph bit from the Colbert show to see the mentality of Trump supporters. Not a defense of Trump supporters here, but do we know how many were edited out that intelligently spoke on issues to form the Triumph bit? Without that, you can't really make any determinations. On top of that, the sample size is likely very small.

Editing doesn't matter. They all signed a release knowing that their recorded statements were perfectly fine in their own heads.

You misinterpreted what I said. The point I was trying to make was not that what they were saying was edited, but that the choices of people who were selected to be in the bit was chosen, for the bit. There could have very well been a majority of well informed people, but that wouldn't have made for a great Triumph bit. You cannot make generalizations based on that video.

Re: US bans WeChat, TikTok from app stores, threatens shutdowns

#273

Post by xorcist »

nrmitchi wrote: post #19
technoplato wrote: post #8

I’m genuinely curious what the perceived threat is here. Is it as simple as “China is going to read everyone’s stuff and use machine learning to figure out what the cool kids are doing and then brainwash them?”

My understanding is that there are quite a few perceived threats, but all of them apply to large US corporations as well. If you collect enough information on people, they can be manipulated to certain beliefs or actions. This is the same information that Facebook and Google use for advertising purposes, similar information to the Cambridge Analytica events, and the risk is China (or a nefarious actor with this infor…

To put it more bluntly: People have studied how to weaponize Facebook, and are have finally got around to make sure others can't to them same to them. It's the classic two sides of intelligence and counter intelligence.

I would expect the big IT companies to be treated more and more as intelligence assets over time, if we aren't already there.

Re: US bans WeChat, TikTok from app stores, threatens shutdowns

#274

Post by xorcist »

Wowfunhappy wrote: post #42
technoplato wrote: post #8

I’m genuinely curious what the perceived threat is here. Is it as simple as “China is going to read everyone’s stuff and use machine learning to figure out what the cool kids are doing and then brainwash them?”

So, separate from the Trump Administration's actual motivations (which I think are at best vague and at worst petty retaliation), I thought this NY Times editorial made a pretty strong case in favor of banning these platforms: https://www.nytimes.com/2020/08/18/opinion/tiktok-wechat-ban... TikTok and WeChat benefit from being the only social networks that can be accessed from all of the largest internet markets in th…

Nobody disputes that China is already playing this game.

That is true in many areas. The questions is what a liberal democracy should do.

Re: US bans WeChat, TikTok from app stores, threatens shutdowns

#275

Post by didibus »

rudolph9 wrote: post #267
didibus wrote: post #246

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not all sanctions ban all trade, and a lot of them are targetted at a whole nation. And they are always politically motivated. Now I have no clue if this particular sanction is warrented, or if it'll have negative impact, etc. So maybe it is short cited, maybe it's not. I'm just saying apart from the higher profiles being sanctioned here, this seems similar to a lot of other sanctions.

Can you name some examples of other sanctions it’s similar to?

For example, ZIMBABWE MINING DEVELOPMENT CORPORATION is sanctioned by the US, so it cannot participate in business transactions with any American company. Another one is Petróleos de Venezuela, S.A. an oil company from Venezuela.

You can read more about it here: https://www.investopedia.com/financial-edge/0410/countries-s...

The important bit is this:

> The U.S. sanctions countries that sponsor terrorism or perpetrate human rights violations on their people. The U.S. can sanction an entire nation or specific individuals or entities within that nation.

Re: US bans WeChat, TikTok from app stores, threatens shutdowns

#276

Post by coolspot »

castratikron wrote: post #264
dheera wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

PSA: If you have an Android phone, you can download WeChat directly from wechat.com. You don't need to go through the Google Play store because your OS supports your freedom to some degree to install whatever you want on hardware that you OWN. If you have an iPhone, sorry that your phone company's CEO is pretty much a dictator and is complicit in restricting the freedom of Americans.

They should GPL the app. Play the PGP card and print the source in a book.

That would not help iOS users.

Re: US bans WeChat, TikTok from app stores, threatens shutdowns

#277

Post by matthewdgreen »

thaumasiotes wrote: post #261
SoylentYellow wrote: post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am focusing on WeChat only with this comment. It is not narrowly tailored or least restrictive. Narrowly tailored means the law must be precisely written to minimize the 1st Amendment impact. In this case, this order prevents millions of Americans from using their primary (and oftentimes only) method to communicate with family in China. There is no practical alternative to WeChat as all other similar apps are banne…

> In this case, this order prevents millions of Americans from using their primary (and oftentimes only) method to communicate with family in China. Didn't look that way to me? The order prohibits services from providing the application or updates to it via an "online mobile application store in the US", it prohibits services from doing any payment processing for WeChat, and it prohibits services from providing hosti…

Translated to a more familiar medium, the analogy would be: “bookstores can no longer sell that title, but that’s ok because people who already own a copy can still read it.” I’m not a constitutional scholar, but this seems like a pretty weak counterargument to me.

Re: US bans WeChat, TikTok from app stores, threatens shutdowns

#278

Post by Natsu »

fspeech wrote: post #249
Natsu wrote: post #212

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I tend to agree with them here, but the thing that always gets me is how many people will support these same actions if, instead of being done by the elected government, they're done by unelected internet companies that hold monopoly power. I get why that may be more of a problem legally, but not why so many people agree with it morally, because they come from people not otherwise inclined to agree with the propositi…

Because first amendment is to limit government power. Private companies are not obliged to give you right to free speech. In theory private companies compete against each other but government has a monopoly on legalized violence.

Yes, that's the legal claim. What's the moral claim?

Re: US bans WeChat, TikTok from app stores, threatens shutdowns

#279

Post by unishark »

jpmoral wrote: post #226
chrchang523 wrote: post #218

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And whose fault is it that "all other similar apps are banned in China"? Given that context, without overwhelming evidence that there's absolutely no connection between the Chinese government and WeChat, this is fair play, and the only valid arguments against this move are tactical rather than legal.

>And whose fault is it that "all other similar apps are banned in China"? I'm not sure that 'China is doing it too' has any bearing on the lawfulness of US government action. >without overwhelming evidence that there's absolutely no connection between the Chinese government and WeChat I think the burden of proof goes the other way.

> I'm not sure that 'China is doing it too' has any bearing on the lawfulness of US government action.

But that's essentially the basis for the other side of the argument in this case, namely that because China only allows certain apps which are hosted and monitored within China, America must too allow those apps which are hosted and monitored within China.

Re: US bans WeChat, TikTok from app stores, threatens shutdowns

#280

Post by TheMblabla »

Natsu wrote: post #278
fspeech wrote: post #249

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because first amendment is to limit government power. Private companies are not obliged to give you right to free speech. In theory private companies compete against each other but government has a monopoly on legalized violence.

Yes, that's the legal claim. What's the moral claim?

TikTok takes down content it doesn't like on a regular basis. It's pretty well known if you use tiktok. Not saying they shouldn't be able to do that, its part of how they got their For You page so popular.

Whether a website wants to display tiktok or not is the same thing - it'll do whatever it thinks will get more users.

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