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US bans WeChat, TikTok from app stores, threatens shutdowns

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Re: US bans WeChat, TikTok from app stores, threatens shutdowns

#261

Post by thaumasiotes »

SoylentYellow wrote: post #173
hirundo wrote: post #17

Banning a speech app should trigger strict judicial scrutiny for first amendment infringement in the same way that banning a newspaper would: 1. Is it necessary to a "compelling state interest"? Maybe they are CCP surveillance apps, but that needs be shown in court, not merely asserted. 2. Is it "narrowly tailored" to achieving this compelling purpose? This seems narrowly tailored to two apps. 3. Does it use the "lea…

I am focusing on WeChat only with this comment. It is not narrowly tailored or least restrictive. Narrowly tailored means the law must be precisely written to minimize the 1st Amendment impact. In this case, this order prevents millions of Americans from using their primary (and oftentimes only) method to communicate with family in China. There is no practical alternative to WeChat as all other similar apps are banne…

> In this case, this order prevents millions of Americans from using their primary (and oftentimes only) method to communicate with family in China.

Didn't look that way to me? The order prohibits services from providing the application or updates to it via an "online mobile application store in the US", it prohibits services from doing any payment processing for WeChat, and it prohibits services from providing hosting or content delivery for WeChat. But while it's doing its best to make it difficult for Americans to obtain WeChat, (1) it does not actually prohibit them from doing so, and (2) it very much doesn't prohibit anyone from using WeChat. (Except for monetary transfer; that's prohibited.)

Re: US bans WeChat, TikTok from app stores, threatens shutdowns

#262

Post by thaumasiotes »

TheDong wrote: post #211
ReptileMan wrote: post #189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you provide a solution that has less 1A impact about Chinese app ran on Chinese servers? I don't think that USG could achieve the goals of Chinese not being able to intercept US communication with anything less than a ban on some level.

Yeah, I can provide an alternative solution: ban its use within the government for sensitive uses, but allow its use by citizens. Issue a public notice to citizens that any wechat communications may be known by the chinese government. If there's an actual national security issue with private citizens using the app, they should air it and give it a chance to be addressed, or succeed in court on its merits. > I don't t…

> Yeah, I can provide an alternative solution: ban its use within the government for sensitive uses, but allow its use by citizens.

Use by citizens is already allowed; the order doesn't address it at all.

Re: US bans WeChat, TikTok from app stores, threatens shutdowns

#263

Post by castratikron »

filoleg wrote: post #222
bgorman wrote: post #199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Honest question: Can you just use email?

Yeah, and if I ban you from using postal services, you can just rely on using pigeon carriers for mail. If what I said sounds ridiculous, that's exactly how your email proposition sounds to people who are used to WeChat. We can argue semantics and details, like "but it isn't the same, because this and that, etc.". But, at the end of the day, if email was even close to being as convenient as WeChat for the purposes th…

It just seems strange that there's only one option available. In the US there are so many options that I find myself using an app just to talk to a specific friend, e.g. to talk to John, I'll use Twitter DMs, but I'll use Facebook to talk to Mike. Maybe this is a lesson to not consolidate literally every function of daily life into one superapp?

Re: US bans WeChat, TikTok from app stores, threatens shutdowns

#264

Post by castratikron »

dheera wrote: post #48
hirundo wrote: post #17

Banning a speech app should trigger strict judicial scrutiny for first amendment infringement in the same way that banning a newspaper would: 1. Is it necessary to a "compelling state interest"? Maybe they are CCP surveillance apps, but that needs be shown in court, not merely asserted. 2. Is it "narrowly tailored" to achieving this compelling purpose? This seems narrowly tailored to two apps. 3. Does it use the "lea…

PSA: If you have an Android phone, you can download WeChat directly from wechat.com. You don't need to go through the Google Play store because your OS supports your freedom to some degree to install whatever you want on hardware that you OWN. If you have an iPhone, sorry that your phone company's CEO is pretty much a dictator and is complicit in restricting the freedom of Americans.

They should GPL the app. Play the PGP card and print the source in a book.

Re: US bans WeChat, TikTok from app stores, threatens shutdowns

#266

Post by SoylentYellow »

thaumasiotes wrote: post #261
SoylentYellow wrote: post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am focusing on WeChat only with this comment. It is not narrowly tailored or least restrictive. Narrowly tailored means the law must be precisely written to minimize the 1st Amendment impact. In this case, this order prevents millions of Americans from using their primary (and oftentimes only) method to communicate with family in China. There is no practical alternative to WeChat as all other similar apps are banne…

> In this case, this order prevents millions of Americans from using their primary (and oftentimes only) method to communicate with family in China. Didn't look that way to me? The order prohibits services from providing the application or updates to it via an "online mobile application store in the US", it prohibits services from doing any payment processing for WeChat, and it prohibits services from providing hosti…

> But while it's doing its best to make it difficult for Americans to obtain WeChat

By banning WeChat on the app stores, this will eventally restrict the entire general public's access to their platform of choice for 1A protected expression, because their access is subject to never buying a new phone, never resetting their phone, and praying WeChat never issues a required update. As time passes and the above situations occur to more and more users, the 1A impact continues to grow until it encompasses all users. The courts are quite capable of seeing how today's ban will affect tomorrow's free speech.

Also, before someone makes the "sideloading" argument, consider that on iOS it is effectively impossible for the general public. On Android, it is cumbersome and confusing enough that it presents a significant barrier as well. The courts will not ignore that.

Re: US bans WeChat, TikTok from app stores, threatens shutdowns

#267

Post by rudolph9 »

didibus wrote: post #246
rudolph9 wrote: post #181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We’re not banning all trade with a particular national, we’re banning a particular app from a nation we import more from (in terms of dollars as of 2019) than any other nation. This kind of unilateral decision strikes me as short sighted and more politically motivated than anything.

Not all sanctions ban all trade, and a lot of them are targetted at a whole nation. And they are always politically motivated. Now I have no clue if this particular sanction is warrented, or if it'll have negative impact, etc. So maybe it is short cited, maybe it's not. I'm just saying apart from the higher profiles being sanctioned here, this seems similar to a lot of other sanctions.

Can you name some examples of other sanctions it’s similar to?

Re: US bans WeChat, TikTok from app stores, threatens shutdowns

#268

Post by blackrock »

So, we are supposed to have a congress that deliberates and passes laws. This is the notion that we are a society of laws.

However, here, we have a president that acts by decree, similar to a dictator. No deliberations. No industry consultations. Nothing. Just some vague excuse that this is a national security issue, so no further questions are allowed.

Welcome to the new Totalitarian States of America.

Re: US bans WeChat, TikTok from app stores, threatens shutdowns

#269

Post by remarkEon »

pishpash wrote: post #252
remarkEon wrote: post #241

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The issue is not strictly limited to 1A issues or concern over intercepted communications, though. There's a much larger elephant in the room: a social media app, wildly popular with easily influenced young people, that the Chinese Communist Party has, effectively, editorial control over. That's, imo, the most concerning issue here. Imagine what you could do with this power. (I ask that question a bit tongue in cheek…

Imagine what you could do with a newspaper where the editor has editorial control. Oh the horrors!

I’m not sure what point you’re trying to make. Are you admitting that TikTok and WeChat are essentially “news” apps that CCP has editorial control over?

Re: US bans WeChat, TikTok from app stores, threatens shutdowns

#270

Post by johnnyfaehell »

filoleg wrote: post #240
johnnyfaehell wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If they banned them one would pop up real quick.

You make it sound like the main reason Europe still doesn't have a viable Google/FB competitor is the fact that their citizens have access to Google/FB. I have a strong feeling that it might not be the case at all, given that Russia also has access to Google/FB, and yet they have their own viable and massively popular competitors (Yandex for Google, VK for Facebook).

> You make it sound like the main reason Europe still doesn't have a viable Google/FB competitor is the fact that their citizens have access to Google/FB.

This sentence seems wrong on multiple levels. One it implies that Europe has been trying to build competitors and failing. Europe hasn't been, Europe has been trying to tax and control Google and Facebook. Which they've been doing rather well.

It implies that Europe can't build these. Which is really messed up since both those companies have multiple offices in Europe. And that both those companies are largely built by non-us born people.

It fails to understand or at least tries to frame away from the value a site like Facebook has, which is its user base. Even for it's users the value is the other users. Nearly everyone is on Facebook, even if they don't use it regularly.

> I have a strong feeling that it might not be the case at all, given that Russia also has access to Google/FB, and yet they have their own viable and massively popular competitors (Yandex for Google, VK for Facebook).

Facebook got into its dominant position not because other countries didn't have viable competitors. It's that all the competitors were bought up by companies that ran them into the ground.

Russia like China is a country that doesn't aim to be best friends with the US and has propaganda to boost it's own countries offerings, while actively trying to build its own offerings. Russia has more investment into its own services. The US also has lots of investments into offerings from the US. While Europe doesn't really match up. And there isn't even really a specific EU silicon valley competitor, London and Berlin both seem to be in the mix.

My original point is, if Facebook and Google aren't there, there would be a replacement extremely quickly. The revenue these companies make show it's clear there is value in building these service and if the current providers don't exist other companies will want to take that revenue. The technical know-how of how to build these is there. The desire and a realistic chance of success of competing with established companies are not.

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