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US bans WeChat, TikTok from app stores, threatens shutdowns

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Re: US bans WeChat, TikTok from app stores, threatens shutdowns

#211

Post by TheDong »

ReptileMan wrote: post #189
SoylentYellow wrote: post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am focusing on WeChat only with this comment. It is not narrowly tailored or least restrictive. Narrowly tailored means the law must be precisely written to minimize the 1st Amendment impact. In this case, this order prevents millions of Americans from using their primary (and oftentimes only) method to communicate with family in China. There is no practical alternative to WeChat as all other similar apps are banne…

Can you provide a solution that has less 1A impact about Chinese app ran on Chinese servers? I don't think that USG could achieve the goals of Chinese not being able to intercept US communication with anything less than a ban on some level.

Yeah, I can provide an alternative solution: ban its use within the government for sensitive uses, but allow its use by citizens. Issue a public notice to citizens that any wechat communications may be known by the chinese government.

If there's an actual national security issue with private citizens using the app, they should air it and give it a chance to be addressed, or succeed in court on its merits.

> I don't think that USG could achieve the goals of Chinese not being able to intercept US communication

Frankly, that shouldn't be a goal of the us government for private citizens. The us government can protect government communications all it wants, but private citizens should be free to use chinese services if they want. I know someone learning chinese in an american college, and one of their resources is using weibo (a chinese twitter clone basically, definitely hosted on chinese servers). If US private citizens using wechat is "china intercepting us communication", than this person using weibo and emailing chinese students to learn would count too, right?

It seems like a clear violation of the 1st amendment, and the justification seems very flimsy, at best.

Re: US bans WeChat, TikTok from app stores, threatens shutdowns

#212

Post by Natsu »

Animats wrote: post #196
hirundo wrote: post #17

Banning a speech app should trigger strict judicial scrutiny for first amendment infringement in the same way that banning a newspaper would: 1. Is it necessary to a "compelling state interest"? Maybe they are CCP surveillance apps, but that needs be shown in court, not merely asserted. 2. Is it "narrowly tailored" to achieving this compelling purpose? This seems narrowly tailored to two apps. 3. Does it use the "lea…

Which is what the ACLU is saying.[1] "Selectively banning entire platforms violates the First Amendment and harms freedom of speech online." Expect a lawsuit in days, if not hours. [1] https://www.aclu.org/news/free-speech/dont-ban-tiktok-and-we...

I tend to agree with them here, but the thing that always gets me is how many people will support these same actions if, instead of being done by the elected government, they're done by unelected internet companies that hold monopoly power.

I get why that may be more of a problem legally, but not why so many people agree with it morally, because they come from people not otherwise inclined to agree with the proposition that a monpolist's business decisions are somehow above scrutiny.

Re: US bans WeChat, TikTok from app stores, threatens shutdowns

#213

Post by underwater »

ultrarunner wrote: post #155
zaksoup wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How come the argument "you can just buy an android phone" doesn't apply to iOS users in the same way "you can just sideload an APK" does to Google play store users? This isn't a rhetorical question, I'm genuinely curious about how people think of these distinctions.

Personally, it's a bit like if I purchased a Mercedes but found that I could only drive it on certain pre-approved roads, subject to varying partnerships and licensing agreements. Someone telling me, "you can just buy a scooter" seems predicated on the assertion that they both belong in the same category of "means of transportation," but ignores the fact that they operate very differently in several ways. It also ign…

Cars have less built in switching costs than phones. You can only have one phone at a time and there is an entire ecosystem of services and apps are carried forward when you buy a new one.

A better metaphor might be renting a home. Imagine if you could only fill it with furniture and appliances that have been approved, and you can only park certain types of cars in the garage. You could always move, but then you have to buy new everything.

Re: US bans WeChat, TikTok from app stores, threatens shutdowns

#214

Post by TheDong »

nullc wrote: post #210

I wonder what would happen if WeChat/TikTok opened up their protocols and let people connect with arbitrary software, including self written and open source stuff. The malware vector concerns would be gone. They could still spy on communication that wasn't E2E encrypted or impersonate users but that concern arises with essentially every communications service.

I doubt that realistically it would make any difference.

There being open source alternative apps to consume a service means exactly nothing to the officials pushing for this ban.

The action seems to be politically motivated, and technical details like "the protocol is open" are not going to be understood by politicians.

Re: US bans WeChat, TikTok from app stores, threatens shutdowns

#215

Post by tyfon »

vbezhenar wrote: post #79
SomeHacker44 wrote: post #2

US Government just provided another case study in why we need to be able to side load apps.

Ban is a heavy word. Can Google issue command to android phones to stop running some particular program? For example as a security measure to stop malware? I think that Google have that ability, even if that malware was side-loaded. Apple definitely can do that on Macs. That feature could be abused to prevent running any forbidden program and side-load won't help you. Android is still better than iOS in that regard,…

I guess they could include it in the anti-malware checks they run but I've never seen or heard that remove apps before.

Wouldn't surprise me if it could though.

The best option would be AOSP without google bits included.

Re: US bans WeChat, TikTok from app stores, threatens shutdowns

#216

Post by el_dev_hell »

jjcon wrote: post #185
neves wrote: post #165

What really makes me afraid is that the USA Gov is so scared of a foreign social network app, they must really know how powerful are these apps. How would I trust the social networks under the American Gov?

> How would I trust the social networks under the American Gov? Presumably a country probably wouldn’t if they are an enemy of the western world.

Such as China (see: Facebook, Youtube and Instagram).

Re: US bans WeChat, TikTok from app stores, threatens shutdowns

#217

Post by failuser »

2bitencryption wrote: post #200
gameswithgo wrote: post #105

We see another side effect of app stores: gives governments easy leverage to tell you what you can do with your computer.

I hadn't even thought of this. What if WeChat was a traditional installer (.msi, .app, .exe, .run) that you download from some sever and which is mirrored all over the place? Does the same authority apply? Can the government say "it's illegal to have this binary executable?" Or is this only possible because there's one central repository for these platforms, and the government can simply compel the platform (legal an…

They can issue the order, the question is how diligently would the order be fulfilled. Check file name? Check hash? Do a heuristic analysis a la antivirus? Filter network traffic for app signatures on to of this?

Re: US bans WeChat, TikTok from app stores, threatens shutdowns

#218

Post by chrchang523 »

SoylentYellow wrote: post #173
hirundo wrote: post #17

Banning a speech app should trigger strict judicial scrutiny for first amendment infringement in the same way that banning a newspaper would: 1. Is it necessary to a "compelling state interest"? Maybe they are CCP surveillance apps, but that needs be shown in court, not merely asserted. 2. Is it "narrowly tailored" to achieving this compelling purpose? This seems narrowly tailored to two apps. 3. Does it use the "lea…

I am focusing on WeChat only with this comment. It is not narrowly tailored or least restrictive. Narrowly tailored means the law must be precisely written to minimize the 1st Amendment impact. In this case, this order prevents millions of Americans from using their primary (and oftentimes only) method to communicate with family in China. There is no practical alternative to WeChat as all other similar apps are banne…

And whose fault is it that "all other similar apps are banned in China"?

Given that context, without overwhelming evidence that there's absolutely no connection between the Chinese government and WeChat, this is fair play, and the only valid arguments against this move are tactical rather than legal.

Re: US bans WeChat, TikTok from app stores, threatens shutdowns

#219

Post by Aperocky »

2bitencryption wrote: post #200
gameswithgo wrote: post #105

We see another side effect of app stores: gives governments easy leverage to tell you what you can do with your computer.

I hadn't even thought of this. What if WeChat was a traditional installer (.msi, .app, .exe, .run) that you download from some sever and which is mirrored all over the place? Does the same authority apply? Can the government say "it's illegal to have this binary executable?" Or is this only possible because there's one central repository for these platforms, and the government can simply compel the platform (legal an…

You actually can, there's a desktop version.

Re: US bans WeChat, TikTok from app stores, threatens shutdowns

#220

Post by el_dev_hell »

danellis wrote: post #26

What was the point of selling TikTok to Oracle if it's just going to be banned anyway?

There is no talk of TikTok selling to Oracle. The public proposal is a data agreement (basically, Oracle would be storing TikTok data in the US).

Some details are here: https://www.nytimes.com/2020/09/16/technology/tiktok-oracle-...

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