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FBI seized PokerStars.com, FullTiltPoker.com, UB.com,... domain names

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Re: FBI seized PokerStars.com, FullTiltPoker.com, UB.com,... domain names

#231

Post by varjag »

gst wrote: post #65
mycroftiv wrote: post #12

This is a disaster. A very sad day for the internet. We are entering into pastor Niemoller territory here: first they came for the file-sharing websites, next they came for the online gambling websites, and I would guess that Bitcoin is probably next in line, and following that, Magic: the Gathering online and the MMORPGs.

No. It's not a disaster. Just the end of the .com/.net/.org era. As soon as people realize that .com/.net/.org are not neutral, but under US jurisdication, they will move to other TLDs operated in countries with more liberal laws.

In theory yes. In practice they move to Libya.

Re: FBI seized PokerStars.com, FullTiltPoker.com, UB.com,... domain names

#232

Post by dchest »

tankenmate wrote: post #200
dchest wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

.me is operated by "doMEn, d.o.o., a Montenegrin joint venture (doing business as .ME Registry), whose partners include Afilias Limited, GoDaddy.com, Inc., and ME-net d.o.o." ( http://www.domain.me/about.html ), so it seems like it's not under the US jurisdiction.

However the backend is run by Afilias who are subject to US jurisdiction, even though they have their group parent company incorporated in the Republic of Ireland (for tax purposes).

Thanks for information.

Re: FBI seized PokerStars.com, FullTiltPoker.com, UB.com,... domain names

#233

Post by peterwwillis »

pavel_lishin wrote: post #124
gst wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No. It's not a disaster. Just the end of the .com/.net/.org era. As soon as people realize that .com/.net/.org are not neutral, but under US jurisdication, they will move to other TLDs operated in countries with more liberal laws.

Laws can change. I think it's well time to start thinking about how to organize the internet so that it routes around governments even more easily.

Eh. You don't have to "route around" this currently, just use a DNS resolver outside of the country that re-introduces domains which get taken out by oppressive governments.

Nobody wants to do this, though, as it would destroy the fabric of the internet as we know it or something. But a simpler method would just incur more government push back in an arms race around censorship. Do what the chinese [citizens] do: go covert.

Re: FBI seized PokerStars.com, FullTiltPoker.com, UB.com,... domain names

#234

Post by ChuckMcM »

makmanalp wrote: post #213
ChuckMcM wrote: post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nika, none of the issuers you mention will convert back into dollars. Its a one way street. Presumably they have set up agreements with people who will accept them an they have pre-negotiated a discount rate. Its like chucky cheese tokens, you can't turn them back into quarters so that you can play more video games.

What about bitcoins? I thought you could convert those back to dollars.

Good question. Early on when I was trying to create a milli-cent currency for subscription buying of content from a website we wondered if we offered a refund for our digital cash tokens if we'd get in trouble for it.

As it turned out the Digi-cash folks had all the patents and were being real dicks about licensing so we never got to test the question.

I can absolutely predict that if you can buy several hundred thousand dollars worth of bitcoins from person X, and then go to persons P, Q, R, ... Z and redeeem them back for cash, that the authorities will shut down that sort of thing quite quickly.

Re: FBI seized PokerStars.com, FullTiltPoker.com, UB.com,... domain names

#235

Post by smokeyj »

rauljara wrote: post #113
smokeyj wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Constitutional law is so much more complicated than, "this is what the document says". If you can't read the document and deduce it's meaning, why use this document? Is this an emperors clothe type of thing?

If you actually read the document, you would see that the document includes provisions for a court system under the very correct assumption that some people would read the document and come to different conclusions about just what the document means. Ever played a board game and had people disagreed on what the rules said. If you play games of any complexity, it happens all the time. Life is considerably more difficu…

if the Monopoly instructions read "if any questions arise, ask the Banker, his word is final", I would not play that game.

Re: FBI seized PokerStars.com, FullTiltPoker.com, UB.com,... domain names

#236

Post by scott_s »

nika wrote: post #171
Locke1689 wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your pretend definition of what a "coin" is has no relevance in a court of law. They were printed metal tokens that had passing similarity to US coinage. The fact that they weren't issued by the authority of the government is the problem, not the solution.

That is the first definition from the dictionary definition. It is very difficult to debate an issue with people who are not aware of the basic definitions of the terms, and, despite their ignorance, make snide characterizations like "your pretend definition". That they were not passed as government money is an affirmative defense. That you idiots keep chiming in making personal attacks and espousing your ignorant pe…

If I call my chair a "knife," that doesn't change the fact that I can sit in it. It is obvious to me - and, I assume, the judge who made the decision in this case - that the definition of the word "coin" in the law is not the same as the one you are using. That is, the law uses "coin" to mean a metallic object used as currency. Issued by the government or not is not part of the assumed definition. You can't sidestep the law by using a different definition of the word.

Re: FBI seized PokerStars.com, FullTiltPoker.com, UB.com,... domain names

#237

Post by cube13 »

nika wrote: post #69
cjeane wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Constitutional law is so much more complicated than, "this is what the document says". What is happening is here is reprehensible, but I don't think you will find any defense against it in due process.

Actually, the document was written with the intention that anyone could read it and easily tell if their government was violating it or not. There have been a lot of people making up a body of work commonly called "Constitutional law" but much of that body of work seems to serve the purpose of trying to say that you can't just read it. But if you read it, it is very clear. "The right of the people to be secure in the…

>"The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized."

This doesn't mean what you think it means.

It doesn't mean that the government can't take your stuff, full stop. It means that the government can't take your stuff without due cause and process.

Both of which were followed in this case, it appears. The indictment was posted here: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2451482

Re: FBI seized PokerStars.com, FullTiltPoker.com, UB.com,... domain names

#238

Post by rmobin »

laut wrote: post #228
InclinedPlane wrote: post #8

I for one am incredibly glad! Nothing is a more serious menace to our society and our way of life than ... online gambling. I'm glad that in this time of unprecedented natural disasters, geopolitical unrest, and financial crisis our government still has its priorities straight.

I guess you are for alcohol prohibition too?

Seems like you missed the "/sarcasm" comment, unless I'm being leveled?

Re: FBI seized PokerStars.com, FullTiltPoker.com, UB.com,... domain names

#239

Post by cgranade »

kragen wrote: post #92
dpifke wrote: post #19

Someone came up with a Firefox add-on to automatically use alternate domain names when one tries to access one seized by the US Government: http://torrentfreak.com/firefox-add-on-undoes-u-s-government... I'm reminded of the John Gilmore quote, "The Net interprets censorship as damage and routes around it."

John Gilmore was talking about Usenet, where that was actually true; if some intermediate netnews server started deleting articles that contained bad words, people using other news servers wouldn't even notice unless they got their only newsfeed from the censoring site. (Later on, this became a problem, as it was impossible to censor spam as well.) The internet is not like Usenet in that way. Its design is full of ce…

The quote is still quite valid when applied to the culture of the Internet, however. People create tools ranging the gamut from Tor to MafiaaFire to circumvent and prevent censorship from occurring, even with systems that are anything like robust.

Re: FBI seized PokerStars.com, FullTiltPoker.com, UB.com,... domain names

#240

Post by pavel_lishin »

peterwwillis wrote: post #233
pavel_lishin wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Laws can change. I think it's well time to start thinking about how to organize the internet so that it routes around governments even more easily.

Eh. You don't have to "route around" this currently, just use a DNS resolver outside of the country that re-introduces domains which get taken out by oppressive governments. Nobody wants to do this, though, as it would destroy the fabric of the internet as we know it or something. But a simpler method would just incur more government push back in an arms race around censorship. Do what the chinese [citizens] do: go c…

> just use a DNS resolver outside of the country that re-introduces domains which get taken out by oppressive governments.

But outside of which country? You'd have to read the local news for every country in the world that currently has them, every day, if not hourly.

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