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US bans WeChat, TikTok from app stores, threatens shutdowns

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Re: US bans WeChat, TikTok from app stores, threatens shutdowns

#241

Post by remarkEon »

TheDong wrote: post #211
ReptileMan wrote: post #189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you provide a solution that has less 1A impact about Chinese app ran on Chinese servers? I don't think that USG could achieve the goals of Chinese not being able to intercept US communication with anything less than a ban on some level.

Yeah, I can provide an alternative solution: ban its use within the government for sensitive uses, but allow its use by citizens. Issue a public notice to citizens that any wechat communications may be known by the chinese government. If there's an actual national security issue with private citizens using the app, they should air it and give it a chance to be addressed, or succeed in court on its merits. > I don't t…

The issue is not strictly limited to 1A issues or concern over intercepted communications, though. There's a much larger elephant in the room: a social media app, wildly popular with easily influenced young people, that the Chinese Communist Party has, effectively, editorial control over. That's, imo, the most concerning issue here. Imagine what you could do with this power.

(I ask that question a bit tongue in cheek, because we should also be asking it of Facebook/Twitter/Google et al.)

Re: US bans WeChat, TikTok from app stores, threatens shutdowns

#242

Post by gurkendoktor »

bambax wrote: post #143

Why does the rest of the world tolerate American bullying is beyond me. At least in Europe, we should ban every Facebook app immediately. This would have the added benefit of letting regional apps emerge.

China bans half the internet, the US bans two Chinese apps, therefore the EU should retaliate against the US? I am all for fighting back against the influence of Facebook in Europe (especially WhatsApp), but I don't see why we should care about this case at all.

Most US "bullying" that we experience in the EU is just Silicon Valley absorbing our top IT talent (after _our_ tax payers have bankrolled everyone's university education in full). There's no need for actual bullying because we don't even have any killer apps, much less our own hardware or operating systems that the US could possibly ban.

Re: US bans WeChat, TikTok from app stores, threatens shutdowns

#243

Post by mrlonglong »

This, I'm afraid, is purely Trump's vindinctive revenge on tiktokkers as a million of them wrecked his rally by booking tickets to it and never showed. Isn't abusing his powers and dishonouring the Presidential Office an impeachable offence anyway?

Re: US bans WeChat, TikTok from app stores, threatens shutdowns

#244

Post by nullc »

TheDong wrote: post #214
nullc wrote: post #210

I wonder what would happen if WeChat/TikTok opened up their protocols and let people connect with arbitrary software, including self written and open source stuff. The malware vector concerns would be gone. They could still spy on communication that wasn't E2E encrypted or impersonate users but that concern arises with essentially every communications service.

I doubt that realistically it would make any difference. There being open source alternative apps to consume a service means exactly nothing to the officials pushing for this ban. The action seems to be politically motivated, and technical details like "the protocol is open" are not going to be understood by politicians.

Months before the executive branch took notice there was widespread outcry in computer security circles about tiktok, including on HN.

Tiktok was a toxic malware vector, until the executive branch took notice, then it suddenly became a poor victim of political persecution.

Re: US bans WeChat, TikTok from app stores, threatens shutdowns

#245

Post by djaque »

hirundo wrote: post #17

Banning a speech app should trigger strict judicial scrutiny for first amendment infringement in the same way that banning a newspaper would: 1. Is it necessary to a "compelling state interest"? Maybe they are CCP surveillance apps, but that needs be shown in court, not merely asserted. 2. Is it "narrowly tailored" to achieving this compelling purpose? This seems narrowly tailored to two apps. 3. Does it use the "lea…

It's also worth noting that at least for TikTok, its audience is young and left leaning. It is wildly popular with young people. It was where individuals organized buying up tickets to Trump rallies to inflate expectations during the pandemic [1], something which is known to have angered Trump.

Something as targeted as this ban seems like Trump deplatforming his critics under the excuse of national security. Plus, it's happening right before the election.

[1] https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/21/style/tiktok-trump-rally-...

Re: US bans WeChat, TikTok from app stores, threatens shutdowns

#246

Post by didibus »

rudolph9 wrote: post #181
didibus wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How does that apply to all other economic Sanctions? Like the sanctions on Cuba? If Cuba made a product that can arguably "enable free speech", would it be able to bypass sanctions?

We’re not banning all trade with a particular national, we’re banning a particular app from a nation we import more from (in terms of dollars as of 2019) than any other nation. This kind of unilateral decision strikes me as short sighted and more politically motivated than anything.

Not all sanctions ban all trade, and a lot of them are targetted at a whole nation. And they are always politically motivated.

Now I have no clue if this particular sanction is warrented, or if it'll have negative impact, etc. So maybe it is short cited, maybe it's not. I'm just saying apart from the higher profiles being sanctioned here, this seems similar to a lot of other sanctions.

Re: US bans WeChat, TikTok from app stores, threatens shutdowns

#247

Post by apta »

romwell wrote: post #234
ardy42 wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Yeah, let's follow CCP practices in the US, that'll show 'em! To a certain extent, yes. A lot of foreign relations is about reciprocation and self-interest. For many, many years the US tolerated CCP polices that hurt its interests with the hope that, over time, that would cause the CCP would liberalize. That hasn't happened, and it's clear it won't happen anytime soon.

Of course, reciprocation is always the answer. We should also reciprocate CCP's oppression of Uighurs in concentration camps by ramping up our oppression in ICE camps, right?

That's a strawman argument.

Re: US bans WeChat, TikTok from app stores, threatens shutdowns

#249

Post by fspeech »

Natsu wrote: post #212
Animats wrote: post #196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which is what the ACLU is saying.[1] "Selectively banning entire platforms violates the First Amendment and harms freedom of speech online." Expect a lawsuit in days, if not hours. [1] https://www.aclu.org/news/free-speech/dont-ban-tiktok-and-we...

I tend to agree with them here, but the thing that always gets me is how many people will support these same actions if, instead of being done by the elected government, they're done by unelected internet companies that hold monopoly power. I get why that may be more of a problem legally, but not why so many people agree with it morally, because they come from people not otherwise inclined to agree with the propositi…

Because first amendment is to limit government power. Private companies are not obliged to give you right to free speech. In theory private companies compete against each other but government has a monopoly on legalized violence.

Re: US bans WeChat, TikTok from app stores, threatens shutdowns

#250

Post by ardy42 »

frequentnapper wrote: post #238
Bhilai wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The Chinese market bans most of America's social media software, and we're entering a trade war. America is not China and should not frame its policies based on China's policies. While, I agree there is a need to retaliate but 'be like China' is hardly the way to do it.

Except that it should frame its policies based on game theory if it ever plans to survive against China. Which is exactly what it's doing. The time to take the high road against bad actors is over.

> Except that it should frame its policies based on game theory if it ever plans to survive against China. Which is exactly what it's doing. The time to take the high road against bad actors is over.

I don't think the time "to take the high road against bad actors is over", but the time to take the complacent and hopeful road definitely is over.

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