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UK government’s plans to regulate the internet are a threat to free speech

freespeechunion.org

171–180 of 204 posts

Re: UK government’s plans to regulate the internet are a threat to free speech

#171
post #111
post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Can you imagine a successful doctor or a business owner being seriously offended because someone on the Internet called them a bad word? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Chiropractic_Associati... : a journalist questioning some of the "alternative medicine" claims of chiropractors got them so offended they tried to sue him into silence. https://nypost.com/2019/12/31/alex-jones-to-pay-100k-in-sand... : as a fat…

OP said "successful doctor", it's unclear how chiropractors are relevant.

OP also said "or a business owner". The "alternative medicine" types may not be credible doctors but at least some of them do know how to run a successful business. (And just to be fair, some chiropractors are proper doctors specializing in musculoskeletal issues and not trying to push chiropractic treatments as cure-all alternatives to mainstream medicine. As they say, it's the 99% that give the 1% a bad name….)

Re: UK government’s plans to regulate the internet are a threat to free speech

#172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sticks and stones may break my bones, but words will never hurt me. Words are just words. One may hear or read words that provoke them to violence or other negative behavior but blaming the speech in whole or in part removes agency from those who choose to react in a negative way.

Words can cause trauma. A lasting, debilitating effect. Even changes to brain structure (PTSD etc) and long term disability. I regard that as a harm. Note that "cause harm" does not always imply "blame". It does imply cause and effect though, suggesting "responsibility".

Words cannot cause trauma. The mind engages with words in such a way that leads to trauma.

Re: UK government’s plans to regulate the internet are a threat to free speech

#173
post #73
post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a pretty clear line at incitement to violence.

Absolutely not. There's loads of stuff that makes it into mass shooter manifestoes that has clearly been part of inciting them to violence, but can't be cleanly traced back to a specific individual telling them to pull the trigger. Have a look at the subject of "stochastic terrorism".

You are on the slope. The slippery slope.

Re: UK government’s plans to regulate the internet are a threat to free speech

#174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I think defending free speech with "the bad speech isn't that harmful, actually" is a bad road to go down. I am offended by this and you shouldn’t have the right to say that. /s While bad speech is indeed harmful, not being allowed to express bad speech (whatever that actually means) is even more harmful.

I don't disagree with that, and I'm in favour of free speech. What I mean is (responding to parent) that the problem is just insecure people being needlessly offended is a bad defense of free speech. No matter what your standard of "real harm," free speech has examples where it risks causing real harm. Speech is not harmless. The contrary, it can be very potent, powerful and therefore harmful. The point of a right is…

> No matter what your standard of "real harm," free speech has examples where it risks causing real harm.

I think you must have either a very broad interpretation of what counts as "speech" or a very loose concept of causality. My standard of "real harm", which I do not consider particularly idiosyncratic, essentially comes down to bodily injury or property damage. (How other people think about you—reputation—is not included; neither does IP count as actual property.) Speech is purely the communication of information (of any sort) from one person to another, which by its nature causes neither bodily injury nor property damage. Speech may influence listeners may go on to inflict bodily injury or property damage, but to say that the speech caused the harm ignores the agency of those responsible for acting on it. Mere influence does not nullify choice or personal responsibility.

Freedom of religion falls under a similar category; your beliefs are your own and you ought not be persecuted (or prosecuted) for them, but that doesn't mean you get a free pass if you act on those beliefs in a way that harms others. Theft is still theft, and punishable as such, even if your religion disavows private property. Murder is still murder even if your religion calls for human sacrifice. Etc.

In both cases you have to start with the much more fundamental right to do anything which does not directly harm other people or their property in order to answer the question of which particular forms of expression (of speech or religious sentiment) are actually protected. Speech and religious expression are subsets of the set of things you already have every right to do specifically because they do not harm others, and only really make sense in that context. The key point of the dual freedoms of speech and religion is to emphasize that actions you would otherwise be free to take do not suddenly become out-of-bounds based on the information content or religious affiliation.

Re: UK government’s plans to regulate the internet are a threat to free speech

#175
post #51
post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"The problem with freedom is that people abuse it and cause harm to others." Edit: (to be clear, I do not personally believe this, just offering a little insight as to how the "not insignificant majority" think)

The misunderstanding is that freedoms exist without constraint due to the damage that their exercise does to others. I have freedom to act in any way I choose, but I am not allowed to smash my neighbors windows or set a fire in their garden. The harm that I would do necessarily defines the parameters of my freedom. Likewise screaming Fire! in a crowded space is not allowed as free speech. People could die, you could…

> Likewise screaming Fire! in a crowded space is not allowed as free speech.

Can we please stop using this worn-out excuse for censorship as if it were some deep insight? It was indefensible back when it was first invented to justify prosecuting people for protesting the draft. It's just plain sad that people still parrot it to this day.

First, even the people that invented it for reasons of political expediency didn't take it that far. You can scream "Fire!" if there is an actual fire.

Putting that aside, even if there isn't an actual fire, no one dies because you scream "Fire!". They die because people panic and trample them in their haste to escape. That isn't a matter of speech. The responsibility for that harm is on the people that panicked—just as it would be if the fire were real. The appropriate response to a call of "Fire!" in a crowded space is to make a rapid but safe and orderly escape without trampling anyone, whether the fire is real, feigned, or an innocent false alarm.

Re: UK government’s plans to regulate the internet are a threat to free speech

#176
post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

By economoc ostracism you mean boycot? Cause that one used to be valid and speech just a few years ago.

It just doesn't seem that complicated to me, if you're receiving nonverbal retribution for something you said, you weren't free to say it.

Ostracism, economic of otherwise, is just people exercising their freedom of association and choosing not to associate with you. Which they are free to do for any reason or no reason—you do not have a right to receive services from someone else against their will, and freedom of speech doesn't change that fact. This is categorically different from having harm inflicted on you (capital punishment, imprisonment, loss of property, etc.) on the basis of what you said.

Re: UK government’s plans to regulate the internet are a threat to free speech

#177
post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In this context, the UK never had free speech. So they aren't losing anything. However, the problem with freedom of speech is that it's not absolute. There are many exceptions that to the reasonable person will agree that need exist. The problem is that opponents of free speech are using the exception system in order to silence dissent.

There aren't many reasonable exceptions. In the US, we have "likely to cause imminent lawless action" and libel laws, which have a very high bar and are rarely used. That's it, and I would argue that's as far as reasonable goes.

Even those two categories aren't reasonable. Speech does not "cause" lawless action, and the proper (read: justified and most effective) response to libel is contrary speech to counter the misinformation, not prosecution of the speaker.

Re: UK government’s plans to regulate the internet are a threat to free speech

#178
post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sources please?

I'm guessing you believe that domestic abuse is primarily a physical act?

Perhaps we could make an exception for child abuse... but adults are supposed to be able to deal with insults in a healthy way, I think. It would be beneficial for them, and perhaps us all.

Re: UK government’s plans to regulate the internet are a threat to free speech

#179

What I’m becoming more painfully aware of with each passing year is that “free speech” is actually (sadly) a very unpopular ideal. We haven’t really had it in a long time, and we have less of it with each passing year - cheered on by a not insignificant majority.

Free speech in the western world ended precisely when out of fear people were not allowed to poke fun at certain religious figures. Thereafter governments noticed that free speech is not such a valued freedom after all and as such they can carve away bits and pieces. Good luck regaining them now that, as we can see, the US has a growing number of people willing to enforce laws made by corrupt governments. The UK will be fine.

Re: UK government’s plans to regulate the internet are a threat to free speech

#180

What I’m becoming more painfully aware of with each passing year is that “free speech” is actually (sadly) a very unpopular ideal. We haven’t really had it in a long time, and we have less of it with each passing year - cheered on by a not insignificant majority.

There should continue to be exceptions to free speech. Who would advocate for removing _all_ of the exceptions listed here https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_free_speech_ex... ?
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