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Birds 'falling out of the sky' in mass die-off in south-western US

theguardian.com

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Re: Birds 'falling out of the sky' in mass die-off in south-western US

#141

Post by dontcarethrow2 »

paulmd wrote: post #85
daveslash wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If our ecology really is collapsing, this is going to get worse. As resources become more and more scarce, powerful first-world countries are not going to want to regress in their standards of living, which I speculate is going to lead to increased global conflict.

our inability to deal with the climate collapse is only a second-order effect, we are completely unable to deal with anything right now. If it wasn't the climate crisis, and if it wasn't the pandemic, it would be something else. Our political system is far too polarized and far too plagued by anti-intellectualism, it simply can't respond to anything. Russia and conservative media (murdoch media, etc) seeding regressi…

I agree with your observations except the anti-intellectual movements. Those are grassroot, obviously allows us to believe anyone to be the boogeyman. I really struggle with the perspective of 'The Russians are out to get us and enslave the world(forever that is their goal) so buy our guns and install our defense systems. Economy machine go brrrrr'.

Re: Birds 'falling out of the sky' in mass die-off in south-western US

#142

Post by zxcmx »

OJFord wrote: post #117
daveFNbuck wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If we can't agree on what the cause is, how can we agree on what to do about it?

Well, there's cause and there's cause. If you have a smoke problem you can put the fire out without working out how it started.

The smoke problem is at the end of a long web of causes and effects.

It is not possible to put out sufficiently large fires.

We need to act earlier in the causal chain. But where? And who pays?

Re: Birds 'falling out of the sky' in mass die-off in south-western US

#143

Post by bonestamp2 »

chrisco255 wrote: post #137
bonestamp2 wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On that note, I always knew we were the problem, but this reminds me of something I heard that changed the way I thought about it... If aliens were flying past our planet and saw all of our concrete and deforestation from space, they'd assume we're an unstoppable virus that will destroy the ecosystem if a cure is not found. That perspective hit me in a way, at a scale, that I have never thought about before. We see m…

If aliens flew by on a space ship then how the hell do you think they manufactured the materials for the space ship? Maybe they've got entire planets devoted to manufacturing. It's rather absurd to think about. This is an incredibly toxic point of view.

> how the hell do you think they manufactured the materials for the space ship?

I'm not saying we shouldn't develop anything, or that aliens can't develop one spaceship sustainably. The point is that we've done a lot of harm and very few people are trying to turn it around. I'm part of the problem too. I need to be better, and we can amplify each other's efforts if we all work together and build the tools and resources that make it easier for everyone to do better.

> This is an incredibly toxic point of view.

I disagree. The most toxic view point is literally the one that ignores how unsustainable we have become and how toxic that is for the planet, and our future on it.

Re: Birds 'falling out of the sky' in mass die-off in south-western US

#144

Post by redisman »

mpfundstein wrote: post #101
mathgladiator wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All I feel these days is despair. It's hard enough to get people to just wear masks, or not throw parties with active covid infection. I think and feel that we are doomed. I wonder if the polymaths have just given up.

in NL, we dont wear masks. and we are totally fine. ofc you dont get people to wear masks if its not necessary at all.

Interesting, looking at the data you're back at the same peak as in April.

Re: Birds 'falling out of the sky' in mass die-off in south-western US

#145

Post by redisman »

jlengrand wrote: post #28
havelhovel wrote: post #20

I have been told on this forum that the men and women working in wildlife conservation are in it for vanity or for self gratification. Relatedly, I have been told on this forum that there is nothing that regular folks can do about climate change. But then events like this happen, and no one reflects on how fatally pessimistic this community can be. Are we ourselves not capable of forecasting the effect of a burning s…

So much this. The events from the past years have already been difficult to digest. But every time I come and read comments, I'm even more depressed, anxious. "no matter if you don't drive, or stop meat; it won't be enough". "nice that you're stopping commuting, but that won't suffice". "offsetting by planting trees is not good enough compared to net zero". Or worse, dismissive like "it only helps with your own self-…

It's funny that this is also coming from the community that runs on building good-enough-for-now solutions rather than trying to raise $1B and build the perfect service from the ground up.

Re: Birds 'falling out of the sky' in mass die-off in south-western US

#146

Post by redisman »

aaronbrethorst wrote: post #38
jlengrand wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So much this. The events from the past years have already been difficult to digest. But every time I come and read comments, I'm even more depressed, anxious. "no matter if you don't drive, or stop meat; it won't be enough". "nice that you're stopping commuting, but that won't suffice". "offsetting by planting trees is not good enough compared to net zero". Or worse, dismissive like "it only helps with your own self-…

Individual behavioral change is insufficient. A civilization-level crisis requires government intervention. Vote.

A dedicated individual can do quite a lot. Look at John Muir for example - should he have just voted and not do anything else with his life for the environment?

Just from the most immediate problems I could see a lot of profitable work in modeling wildfires, maybe using satellite pictures to identify the most vulnerable spots to light up etc. Also optimizing power usage over networks and things like that are exactly in the ballpark of tech. Is that whole problem space really just best left to the government to slowly add incremental improvements every 10 years? Yes vote but also maybe think about spending more than 1h every few years to think about the problem.

Re: Birds 'falling out of the sky' in mass die-off in south-western US

#147

Post by gdubs »

DenisM wrote: post #128
gdubs wrote: post #36

I was walking the trash bins down our long drive to the road yesterday in a soup of wildfire smoke and fog when it occurred to me — we sure have a compartmentalized way of looking at the issues plaguing the world right now. Part of that is the sheer complexity of our contemporary world. There are few polymaths — most are specialists. It feels like we’re sorely lacking people who see across many fields to synthesize e…

> whether people are the cause. Of. Course. We. Are. And that's how conversations go to hell. You just postulate your own correctness and the opposing side recoils from that. Do you really think it's productive?

Merry and Pippin spend the entirety of Two Towers trying to convince the Ents that they are not, in fact, Orcs (while the Shire burns).

We’ve spent decades just trying to get people to agree on facts, basic facts supported by the majority of scientific consensus.

So, forgive me my frustration, but at a certain point we have to agree the sky is blue [1] and move on to the “what are we going to do about it” part.

1: Well, normally it’s blue at least.

Re: Birds 'falling out of the sky' in mass die-off in south-western US

#148

Post by hinkley »

paulmd wrote: post #58
indigochill wrote: post #53

On the topic of seeing across many fields, it's occurred to me there is a common theme across the crises of 2020 (particularly as seen through the lens of the US): "I can't breathe". Covid: check George Floyd's murder which sparked worldwide protests: check Smoke covering half the US: check Not that I'm a polymath or have any answers. My approach to these problems is to leave the fate of the world to those who hold t…

the internal instability within western nations has reached the point that our national psyche has regressed to the lower levels of maslow's hierarchy we've regressed from self-actualization and are now focused on issues of survival

The anti-mask folks have chosen self-actualization over survival. Like the stages of grief, the hierarchy is not necessarily chronological.

Re: Birds 'falling out of the sky' in mass die-off in south-western US

#149

Post by MiroF »

chrisco255 wrote: post #138
MiroF wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Our society is so odd. I find it astonishing that so many people can be cavalier about the deaths of millions of people when it comes to environmental destruction in a way that would be totally socially unacceptable if you were talking about targeted killings or genocide.

Except human population levels are at all time highs. There is no evidence of human population suffering on account of technology. The exact opposite is true: people are living longer, have access to more food and more material goods than any time in history. Stop reading fear porn, it's bad for your mental health.

My point is simple: rooting for the extinction of humanity is bad.

I'm not commenting on the veracity of claims about the extinction of humanity, although I do think that present trends do not always explain or predict future ones.

Re: Birds 'falling out of the sky' in mass die-off in south-western US

#150

Post by redisman »

ed25519FUUU wrote: post #7

“Climate crisis” is starting to become the laziest explanation for why anything unusual happens in this country. Are you telling me these birds never did their migration above forest fires? Tell us why it’s different.

Climate change is a multiplier to almost any environmental issue you can think of.
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