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Birds 'falling out of the sky' in mass die-off in south-western US

theguardian.com

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Re: Birds 'falling out of the sky' in mass die-off in south-western US

#91

Post by [deleted] »

clankyclanker wrote: post #79
just_fred wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We would have to shut down 90% of the pollutants world wide to do anything. Will make the Covid shutdowns look like a long weekend. And even then it might not make a difference if climate change is out of our control. You willing to do that?

Yup, because in the mid-term, the alternative is basically the same anyway. I don’t want to be uncharitable, but I can’t help reading your comment as, “we shouldn’t be inconvenienced to prevent ours and our children’s suffering.” That can’t be a correct reading, can it?

[deleted]

Re: Birds 'falling out of the sky' in mass die-off in south-western US

#92

Post by heresie-dabord »

MiroF wrote: post #25
steffan wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Habitability for humans . It's more or less a self-correcting problem

Our society is so odd. I find it astonishing that so many people can be cavalier about the deaths of millions of people when it comes to environmental destruction in a way that would be totally socially unacceptable if you were talking about targeted killings or genocide.

> in a way that would be totally socially unacceptable if you were talking about targeted killings or genocide

It is neither "cavalier" nor incompassionate to refer to the age of the planet and the history of life (e.g. humans). It's a scientific fact that we haven't existed for very long in geological time and that we could become extinct by our own doing... or by a suitably large cosmic impactor (among other causes, cosmic or terrestrial).

Real cavalier talk might be about the tobacco industry, the war industry, or the tens of thousands of people who die in motor-vehicle accidents every year in the US alone.

> Our society is so odd.

Indeed. Squeamish about the truth, comfortable in delusion.

Re: Birds 'falling out of the sky' in mass die-off in south-western US

#93

Post by paulmd »

jlengrand wrote: post #28
havelhovel wrote: post #20

I have been told on this forum that the men and women working in wildlife conservation are in it for vanity or for self gratification. Relatedly, I have been told on this forum that there is nothing that regular folks can do about climate change. But then events like this happen, and no one reflects on how fatally pessimistic this community can be. Are we ourselves not capable of forecasting the effect of a burning s…

So much this. The events from the past years have already been difficult to digest. But every time I come and read comments, I'm even more depressed, anxious. "no matter if you don't drive, or stop meat; it won't be enough". "nice that you're stopping commuting, but that won't suffice". "offsetting by planting trees is not good enough compared to net zero". Or worse, dismissive like "it only helps with your own self-…

individual-scale action is not a substitute for collective action. You can plant trees and sort your recycling every day for the rest of your life and it won't make the tiniest fraction of the difference that raising fuel economy standards or implementing a carbon tax or whatever would do.

individual action is often presented as a sop precisely because industry wants to divert discussion from the forms of collective action that actually make a difference.

Re: Birds 'falling out of the sky' in mass die-off in south-western US

#94

Post by havelhovel »

jlengrand wrote: post #28
havelhovel wrote: post #20

I have been told on this forum that the men and women working in wildlife conservation are in it for vanity or for self gratification. Relatedly, I have been told on this forum that there is nothing that regular folks can do about climate change. But then events like this happen, and no one reflects on how fatally pessimistic this community can be. Are we ourselves not capable of forecasting the effect of a burning s…

So much this. The events from the past years have already been difficult to digest. But every time I come and read comments, I'm even more depressed, anxious. "no matter if you don't drive, or stop meat; it won't be enough". "nice that you're stopping commuting, but that won't suffice". "offsetting by planting trees is not good enough compared to net zero". Or worse, dismissive like "it only helps with your own self-…

I took an elective wildlife conservation class while earning my Master's. I had no right to be there, because I was surrounded by the brightest, most pragmatic minds I had ever met. The work that my classmates had done to stop destruction, or to sustain populations through novel solutions, was awe inspiring. We don't see it here, and there's an obvious reason for why that might be, but there are amazing people out there who are making the world a better place than it would otherwise be. The least I can do is not just give up. Thank you for doing your part. I really appreciate it.

Re: Birds 'falling out of the sky' in mass die-off in south-western US

#95

Post by ed25519FUUU »

danaris wrote: post #15
ed25519FUUU wrote: post #7

“Climate crisis” is starting to become the laziest explanation for why anything unusual happens in this country. Are you telling me these birds never did their migration above forest fires? Tell us why it’s different.

Sometimes, if you find something like this to be unbelievable, you have to step back and ask yourself: What would things look like if the "climate crisis" answer was true? Take the premise that you disagree with, assume that it's true, and try to follow logically from there. In this case, a real climate crisis would have incredibly broad effects. It could very plausibly be pointed to as the cause for the many things…

I believe the premise, that doesn't mean the research isn't intellectually lazy and hand-wavy. Believing in climate change doesn't mean I have to turn off my brain when I hear research.

Re: Birds 'falling out of the sky' in mass die-off in south-western US

#96

Post by scrozart »

just_fred wrote: post #70
ohyes wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But frankly, it doesn't matter if we're the cause or not, we're the only thing around that could potentially do anything to save ourselves. So ya know, we kinda should regardless of whose fault it is.

We would have to shut down 90% of the pollutants world wide to do anything. Will make the Covid shutdowns look like a long weekend. And even then it might not make a difference if climate change is out of our control. You willing to do that?

This statement is hyperbolic and unhelpful at best. The citizens of countries all over the world have indicated, en masse, they are willing to make drastic changes. Their governments are either slow to react or beholden to the financial interests of the worst offenders.

Re: Birds 'falling out of the sky' in mass die-off in south-western US

#97

Post by daveFNbuck »

ohyes wrote: post #47
gdubs wrote: post #36

I was walking the trash bins down our long drive to the road yesterday in a soup of wildfire smoke and fog when it occurred to me — we sure have a compartmentalized way of looking at the issues plaguing the world right now. Part of that is the sheer complexity of our contemporary world. There are few polymaths — most are specialists. It feels like we’re sorely lacking people who see across many fields to synthesize e…

But frankly, it doesn't matter if we're the cause or not, we're the only thing around that could potentially do anything to save ourselves. So ya know, we kinda should regardless of whose fault it is.

If we can't agree on what the cause is, how can we agree on what to do about it?

Re: Birds 'falling out of the sky' in mass die-off in south-western US

#98

Post by mhb »

xoa wrote: post #72
mhb wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

we’re still having arguments about whether people are the cause. Of. Course. We. Are. You seem to discount the anthropocentric argument (as it should be) and then promptly jump right in to it. Why does it matter what the cause is?

> Why does it matter what the cause is? Are you being serious? The cause is a key part of choosing the most efficient response. Responses can potentially involve both reactionary measures to climate forcing and reductionary measures trying to reduce forcing. If the cause was, say, the sun getting brighter by 15% for some reason, well we can't just turn down the sun, so while yes we'd having just a much motivation to…

We have a problem and need to find the best way to fix it. Understanding the cause in order to find one possible fix is an obvious thing to do. So is looking for any other possible solutions. It is an unnecessary constraint that we need to solve the problem only by reversing its cause.

If the cause of the problem was a brighter sun but we could save the planet by internalizing the cost of our emissions, it seems like it would be wise to do that regardless of whether an earth umbrella might address the root cause more directly.

Re: Birds 'falling out of the sky' in mass die-off in south-western US

#99

Post by hirako2000 »

vixen99 wrote: post #67
gdubs wrote: post #36

I was walking the trash bins down our long drive to the road yesterday in a soup of wildfire smoke and fog when it occurred to me — we sure have a compartmentalized way of looking at the issues plaguing the world right now. Part of that is the sheer complexity of our contemporary world. There are few polymaths — most are specialists. It feels like we’re sorely lacking people who see across many fields to synthesize e…

Is forest management, among other things, really that complicated in terms of what one has to do? The California Department of Forestry and Fire Protection (CAL FIRE), cites shrubs and live and dead vegetation as in forest fires, 'being an easily ignitable fuel source that helps spread the flames quickly over vast distances.' It's worth noting that NASA reports that global fires are down by 25% between 2003 and 2019.…

deforestation overall is not going down though.

Re: Birds 'falling out of the sky' in mass die-off in south-western US

#100

Post by mlillie »

just_fred wrote: post #70
ohyes wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But frankly, it doesn't matter if we're the cause or not, we're the only thing around that could potentially do anything to save ourselves. So ya know, we kinda should regardless of whose fault it is.

We would have to shut down 90% of the pollutants world wide to do anything. Will make the Covid shutdowns look like a long weekend. And even then it might not make a difference if climate change is out of our control. You willing to do that?

Given that some 35% of global emissions this century have come from such unnecessary atrocities as the War on Terror[1] I am confident we have a good starting point for things to cut.

[1] https://watson.brown.edu/costsofwar/files/cow/imce/papers/20...

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