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Facebook staffer sends 'blood on my hands' memo

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Re: Facebook staffer sends 'blood on my hands' memo

#81

Post by ogre_codes »

batmaniam wrote: post #31
jentist_retol wrote: post #2

I've taken a hard line with people who work at Facebook. If you're still there and unwilling to represent the failings your company has done to society, then I need to hear a justification before moving further in the conversation. I don't think I've ever felt this strongly about a tech company. I know that's tough but it's a matter of ethics. And frankly, Facebook is an amazing technical institution, and I would lov…

This is an extremely unfair evaluation of software engineers. There's no such thing as a company doing ethical work, they all answer to shareholders and generate profit solely to benefit that class of people. Everyone else is the working class, trying to get by and without any ability to actually change the incentive structure of a company. We all work for someone who is screwing someone else, be it the consumer or y…

> There's no such thing as a company doing ethical work,

A "Company" is the sum of the collective actions of its employees, board, and management. If that collective does things which are unethical—for example supporting repressive regimes—then that is unethical.

While some companies are borderline, there is zero doubt in my mind that Facebook is unethical.

Re: Facebook staffer sends 'blood on my hands' memo

#82

Post by themacguffinman »

input_sh wrote: post #7

Here's the original article, with more direct quotes from the memo: https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/craigsilverman/facebook... According to it, the full version isn't going to be released because it contains privately identifiable information.

I'm honestly confused. Doesn't the Buzzfeed article publish her full name and excerpts from her LinkedIn profile? Protecting the author's private info is a hard reason to swallow when they literally reveal the author's full name and LinkedIn profile.

Re: Facebook staffer sends 'blood on my hands' memo

#83

Post by [deleted] »

rStar wrote: post #11

when I went to university in 1999 it was my dream to work at a company like microsoft, then google. then i realized that big tech is just a way for those in control of society to control us more efficiently. i feel for those who just want to put their head down and do the work. nobody thought they were going to CS school to enable the exploitation of less lucky others. but now we have facebook, amazon, palantir, goog…

[deleted]

Re: Facebook staffer sends 'blood on my hands' memo

#84

Post by dang »

newcomputer wrote: post #26
jentist_retol wrote: post #2

I've taken a hard line with people who work at Facebook. If you're still there and unwilling to represent the failings your company has done to society, then I need to hear a justification before moving further in the conversation. I don't think I've ever felt this strongly about a tech company. I know that's tough but it's a matter of ethics. And frankly, Facebook is an amazing technical institution, and I would lov…

You sound like an absolutely awful person to work with.

Please make your substantive points thoughtfully and avoid personal attacks.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Re: Facebook staffer sends 'blood on my hands' memo

#85

Post by acephal »

PaulDavisThe1st wrote: post #42
batmaniam wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is an extremely unfair evaluation of software engineers. There's no such thing as a company doing ethical work, they all answer to shareholders and generate profit solely to benefit that class of people. Everyone else is the working class, trying to get by and without any ability to actually change the incentive structure of a company. We all work for someone who is screwing someone else, be it the consumer or y…

(1) There are privately held companies who are not answerable to shareholders (certainly not a large group of them), and who may not even operate with profit as their primary goal. (2) There are more nuanced definitions of "working class" which might be useful in this context. As much as I applaud class solidarity, there are ways in which software engineers currently are not subject to the same issues as other people…

Yeah really can't behind this idea software engineers are in any way "working class". Kind of an affront in my book.

Re: Facebook staffer sends 'blood on my hands' memo

#86

Post by jentist_retol »

Answerawake wrote: post #71
jentist_retol wrote: post #2

I've taken a hard line with people who work at Facebook. If you're still there and unwilling to represent the failings your company has done to society, then I need to hear a justification before moving further in the conversation. I don't think I've ever felt this strongly about a tech company. I know that's tough but it's a matter of ethics. And frankly, Facebook is an amazing technical institution, and I would lov…

With all due respect: I think this thinking comes from a massive place of privilege. With the sea of unemployed entry level developers who would kill for a job with FAANG, getting into Facebook for the chance to earn that kind of money and work with such experienced people would probably be a dream come true for many of them. I have even met so many people with years of experience that are on the outside of the FAANG…

Yeah, I addressed this later on. It's very contextual. You're assuming/inferring there's some strict moral framework, and then I walk into that room and say "fuck you for working at facebook, get out of my face". No! I would never!

I would still ask a new grad the question, and maybe I would put more weight on the answer if they had made it to a senior role.

>It just seems wrong to cause trouble to others because they may have had this only chance to join the elite FAANG crowd and now they pay for it because of people with your line of thinking.

I have never worked at FAANG and I don't intend to, to be honest. I did pass on an offer at A, earlier in my career.

>I have even met so many people with years of experience that are on the outside of the FAANG wall looking in with jealousy and longing.

Well, if they ever get in and show up in my interview panel, they should be prepared for a softball ethics question. That seems like a small price to pay, tbh

Re: Facebook staffer sends 'blood on my hands' memo

#87

Post by ghiculescu »

ksenzee wrote: post #40
jentist_retol wrote: post #2

I've taken a hard line with people who work at Facebook. If you're still there and unwilling to represent the failings your company has done to society, then I need to hear a justification before moving further in the conversation. I don't think I've ever felt this strongly about a tech company. I know that's tough but it's a matter of ethics. And frankly, Facebook is an amazing technical institution, and I would lov…

This is absolutely fair. When I ask people coming from Amazon why they left, I am very carefully listening to whether they like how Amazon treats its people or not. If I were interviewing an ex-Facebook employee, I'd want to hear some discomfort with Facebook's ethics.

In 2021, studying for the interview will not be memorising algorithms, it will be memorising which past jobs to pretend to regret.

Re: Facebook staffer sends 'blood on my hands' memo

#88

Post by justinzollars »

I've been involved in politics and software a long time. I was an elected Hillary Clinton DNC Delegate in 2008. I'm a senior software engineer today. And I'm not sure Democracy will survive contact with social media. I have a solution.

1. Ancient History - Historically politics was a hobby of the elite. You had to go out of your way, sometimes into the cold to attend party meetings. The discussions were academic and professional. People who were involved in politics had their lives very much together, on both sides of the isle.

2. Social Media was invented. I had the opportunity to work with a very fantastic and kind person. My role in the organization was software engineer. This person's role was warehouse operations. Because of Social media this person, who would otherwise never be politically engaged, rocks social media all day long. With the advent of Facebook on mobile, this person tweets political memes all day long. This person spends Xor time on reddit, and "chan" sites. This person now represents the main stream. This person is awesome, but shouldn't be shaping policy.

3. Solutions. I have a number of ideas. I think we should move away from ideas such as ballot initiatives and direct democracy and embrace the fact we are a Republic. We need professionals to determine policy not the twitter mob. Another solution I would seriously implement is a rule. No politics on social media. If its political, flag it, delete it. This would take care of twitters toxicity problem, and facebooks foreign interference problems.

I'm spitballing ideas here, but I am not sure Democracy can survive first contact with social media. It's a mess. people are angry. If you work at one of these big tech companies, I'd love to know your take!

Re: Facebook staffer sends 'blood on my hands' memo

#89

Post by jentist_retol »

elliekelly wrote: post #74
jentist_retol wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I work in the security org now, and so I deal with a lot of exmilitary and exfederal employees. Considering that the military is a institution in this country that helps a lot of working class kids get education and training... It really comes down to choices and consent for me. If you're in the military, that may have been the option for an 18 year old and certainly I wasn't thinking about ethics when I was 18. But…

I definitely think there's a bit of "sliding scale of accountability" that makes sense. I won't begrudge someone who worked for Amazon in the warehouse because it paid slightly better than Walmart or Home Depot down the road. But the higher up you are in an organization the more control you (presumably) have and so, in my mind, the more "culpable" you are for that organization's actions. That can still be difficult t…

Yes, it's absolutely contextual.

At the very least, asking a softball question will help filter out someone I might not want to personally work with.

I actually think interviewing really sucks, because you spend an hour getting to know someone who you'll potentially spend 40 hours a week for years with? That's a whole separate topic, though.

Re: Facebook staffer sends 'blood on my hands' memo

#90

Post by BitwiseFool »

DSingularity wrote: post #35
dlss wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a great Warren Buffett quote on this: "Somebody once said that in looking for people to hire, you look for three qualities: integrity, intelligence, and energy. And if you don't have the first, the other two will kill you. You think about it; it's true. If you hire somebody without integrity, you really want them to be dumb and lazy."

Great quote. But I wonder if things are so dark at some of these companies that, for some positions, they actually need to find people who lack integrity.

I doubt any CEO would admit to utilizing people who "lack integrity" but are otherwise ruthlessly effective.
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