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Microsoft's underwater data centre resurfaces after two years

bbc.co.uk

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Re: Microsoft's underwater data centre resurfaces after two years

#351

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One would imagine that the signal to noise ratio for wireless data transmission in the ocean would be pretty abysmal. That said, there's no reason why they couldn't just run a fiber optic cable out from it, as long as it's designed to rotate around said cable.

I thought of the cable solution, but that would have some wear and tear if the capsule gets to move around. I was imagining a periscope-y antenna, in the form of a buoy.

Short range high power wireless to cable. Basically cable but with a wear buffer.

Re: Microsoft's underwater data centre resurfaces after two years

#352

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're right that renewably-generated waste heat isn't a big deal all-else-being-equal; but all else usually isn't equal, and climate change is a always question of numbers (my favourite example: extracting a barrel of oil from the air/flue using renewable energy and sequestering it long-term, compared to the cost of leaving a barrel's worth of oil where it is in the ground; the latter is free, except for opportunity…

Hmm, wait, why isn't the first one free in terms of CO2?

The first one requires development, construction, installation and maintenance of equipment; it requires explicit effort from many people; it will need to be decommissioned at some point; the storage will have some marginal cost (e.g. containers, drilling holes, etc. depending on the method). These things all cost CO2, unless the economy has already been decarbonised (in which case it wouldn't be needed).

More importantly, being "free in terms of CO2" is still an all-else-being-equal perspective. It's focusing on one aspect (CO2 emissions) of one small cog (a CO2 extraction+storage plant). If we look more broadly, each barrel extracted is offsetting less than one barrel being burned elsewhere (since nothing is 100% efficient). CO2 extraction and sequestration is thus a form of power transmission: the work that is required to offset emissions (e.g. from a car) is being performed away from where the emissions are made (although for flue capture this might be quite close!). For example, we can think of these as being roughly equivalent:

- A fossil fuel car with solar-powered carbon capture and storage onboard

- A fossil fuel car with solar-powered carbon capture and storage in some other location

- A solar-charged battery-electric car (+ a little CCS to offset manufacturing emmissions, etc.)

These are all solar powered and carbon-neutral (as long as they offset enough). Let's say they each receive a similar amount of solar energy: the first will not get very far, since offsetting is very energy intensive and it needs more fuel to carry the solar+CCS equipment. The second is more efficient, since the fuel doesn't need to move the solar+CCS equipment; it's as if the offboard CCS is transmitting a little extra power to the car. The third will get much further, since the battery and electric motor make much better use of the solar power than the CCS system.

The first approach is clearly silly. The second is useful in situations where renewables can't be used directly (e.g. jumbo jet fuel), but is incredibly wasteful and expensive compared to the third. The third approach is best, and should be used as much as possible.

If somewhere has an abundance of renewable power (e.g. geothermal in Iceland), then "transmitting" it elsewhere via CCS is much less efficient than, say, laying a high-voltage DC line; or moving high-energy, location-agnostic activities to the region like aluminium smelting or datacenters.

Re: Microsoft's underwater data centre resurfaces after two years

#353

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn’t one of the environmentalist complaints against nuclear is they heat up the water near shore, which changes the ecology? One of these might not be a big deal, but a thousand? Worth questioning.

>Isn’t one of the environmentalist complaints against nuclear is they heat up the water near shore, which changes the ecology? This is a valid point for small streams, whose ecology can't adapt when the temperature changes mid-stream. For oceans the picture is a bit different though. Suppose we're looking at a cubic kilometer of seawater that has a temperature of 10C. The entire output of a nuclear power plant (singl…

But isn't the real issue how these small changes add up over time? Seems kind of like saying "a single car will not put out enough CO2 to impact the atmosphere" but here we are with millions (billions?) of cars that are definitely having an impact on their environment. Granted, we will not have millions of data centers but maybe we have enough that it makes a negative impact. Certainly seems plausible.

I don't know anything about ecology, but my intuition is that all of these things from wind turbines to data centers under water, have an impact on their ecosystems. It wouldn't surprise me if we found out these had a negative (or neutral) impact on their environments.

I guess my point is that it seems naive to simply hand-wave off the possibility that these supposed environmentally friendly technologies actually negatively impact their environment. Whether or not that negative impact is less than the alternative is an interesting question.

Re: Microsoft's underwater data centre resurfaces after two years

#354

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, marine life is not going to give a damn about warm tubes. There's plenty of natural heat sources in the ocean way more extreme than that. As for the noise, that can have a negative impact, but it's going to be nothing compared to the noise ships are making: https://www.npr.org/2020/07/20/891854646/whales-get-a-break-... Whether it's high-pitched or low-pitched noise also makes a huge difference underwater.

Isn’t one of the environmentalist complaints against nuclear is they heat up the water near shore, which changes the ecology? One of these might not be a big deal, but a thousand? Worth questioning.

Talking, talking, all that talking, fake stop signs on any direction we could move on.

We have a freakin' enormous open thermonuclear power plant beaming on us since the beginning of days. Just don't impact the planet's ingress/egress ratio with that CO2 and it will all turn just fine!

Heat - not a problem now.

Greenhouse gas - big problem now.

Re: Microsoft's underwater data centre resurfaces after two years

#355

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn’t one of the environmentalist complaints against nuclear is they heat up the water near shore, which changes the ecology? One of these might not be a big deal, but a thousand? Worth questioning.

>Isn’t one of the environmentalist complaints against nuclear is they heat up the water near shore, which changes the ecology? This is a valid point for small streams, whose ecology can't adapt when the temperature changes mid-stream. For oceans the picture is a bit different though. Suppose we're looking at a cubic kilometer of seawater that has a temperature of 10C. The entire output of a nuclear power plant (singl…

The reason the northern line (on the tube) is so hot is due to 2decade+ of heat building up in the surrounding rock. Not the same dynamics because of convection in water, etc, but an interesting and very real example of how local buildup of temperature can be hard to manage over multiple years.

Re: Microsoft's underwater data centre resurfaces after two years

#356

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Heat is awfully hard to transfer in the first place, especially when it's not even that hot. It's handy if you can put your data center underneath a swimming pool, for example. But I'm not aware of any large-scale heat recovery projects from data centers. Data centers generally spend extra energy to remove the heat... But honestly who cares if your power comes from renewables in the first place -- solar and wind? It…

The new LUMI EU supercomputer in Finland will put its waste heat into a district heating system: https://www.hpcwire.com/off-the-wire/csc-lumi-supercomputer-... I'm sure smaller scale data centre heat to district heating schemes must already be in place. Fundamentally you are using the same technology to cool the data centre (a heat pump), just pushing that heat into hot-water / steam, rather than dumping into the ai…

Also Wedos here in Czech republic; https://www.wedos.org/en/

Re: Microsoft's underwater data centre resurfaces after two years

#357
post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The beauty of the phrase is that it’s universal.

Is it? I want to talk with aliens as much as the next guy, but so far it seems like the vast majority of the universe is a vacuum--biologically speaking.

The way I see it, space is a life-vacuum, and human nature is to abhor that, as evidenced by the long-standing goal we have of interplanetary/intergalactic settlements.

Which is to say: you’re thinking on the wrong timescale. Just wait and see. :)

Re: Microsoft's underwater data centre resurfaces after two years

#358
post #307

"The team is speculating that the greater reliability may be connected to the fact that there were no humans on board, and that nitrogen rather than oxygen was pumped into the capsule." That does sound plausible. But I do wonder how much might have been due to extra care. If I were the sysadmin on the project, I probably would have spent extra time on component selection, cable seating, burn-in testing, etc. Lots of…

Our computer room had emergency breathing masks on the wall , asked why it was there I was informed about the halon gas fire suppression system.

Needless to say whenever I was there I kept having flashbacks to the first Resident Evil movie.

Re: Microsoft's underwater data centre resurfaces after two years

#359

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This: "there were no humans on board" Made me think of this: "The factory of the future will have only two employees, a man and a dog. The man will be there to feed the dog. The dog will be there to keep the man from touching the equipment."

Is there more to that quote that makes it make sense? Otherwise both the human and the dog are redundant as a pair as their purposes are circular and don't benefit the factory.

beep boop does not compute what is "humor"?

Re: Microsoft's underwater data centre resurfaces after two years

#360
post #307

"The team is speculating that the greater reliability may be connected to the fact that there were no humans on board, and that nitrogen rather than oxygen was pumped into the capsule." That does sound plausible. But I do wonder how much might have been due to extra care. If I were the sysadmin on the project, I probably would have spent extra time on component selection, cable seating, burn-in testing, etc. Lots of…

Nobody's mentioning tin whiskers as a failure mode. Maybe the anaerobic atmosphere slows their growth?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whisker_%28metallurgy%29

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