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Feds: IBM did discriminate against older workers in making layoffs

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Re: Feds: IBM did discriminate against older workers in making layoffs

#41

Post by detaro »

Causality1 wrote: post #34
flowerlad wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What would happen if you lied about your age (eliminate the first 10 years from your resume), both at the time of applying for the job and after joining the company? How much trouble can you get in for that? It doesn't seem unethical at all.

Every job I've ever gotten I had to provide ID.

At a stage where a recruiter makes a decision to make you an offer or not?

Directly lying is a problem still (don't tell them a wrong age), but if they come to the wrong conclusions due to fuzzy data?

Re: Feds: IBM did discriminate against older workers in making layoffs

#44

Post by yardie »

Causality1 wrote: post #34
flowerlad wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What would happen if you lied about your age (eliminate the first 10 years from your resume), both at the time of applying for the job and after joining the company? How much trouble can you get in for that? It doesn't seem unethical at all.

Every job I've ever gotten I had to provide ID.

Every job that you have gotten has needed ID for background checks. I've never been asked for ID, age, or gender during the interview process. Nor would I give that information freely.

I recently filled an online application that asked for SSN and I dropped it right there. You only need my SSN for employer taxes, no way is that part of any job interview.

Re: Feds: IBM did discriminate against older workers in making layoffs

#45

Post by crmd »

commandlinefan wrote: post #26
socrates1998 wrote: post #17

The big tech giants have used this marketing ploy that "older workers don't understand new tech" to undercut them at almost every opportunity. I honestly have no idea why they are allowed to get away with this in the media and public opinion. Maybe because older people don't know new tech, so they think older programmers don't know it either? It's insane to me that an older programmer with decades of experience and m…

> cheaper, contractor rates. Are contractors cheaper than permanent employees? I always thought it was the opposite - that's why so many positions are "contract to hire". They'd rather have a perm employee, but they want to deal with contracting for a few months just to be on the safe side.

What IBM really cares about is limiting the older employees’ defined-benefit pension liabilities. That is why it was so important to IBM that these folks were made to no longer be IBM employees. Lower salary was icing on the cake.

Re: Feds: IBM did discriminate against older workers in making layoffs

#47

Post by patwolf »

I'm not surprised. A few years back IBM started a "back to the lab" initiative to dissuade workers from working remotely. Workers that were unable to commute to a physical office were forced to leave the company. My impression is that this disproportionately affected older workers. It seemed like soon after the dust had settled they no longer enforced the requirement. Note, this was after I left the company, so it's all second-hand knowledge.

I do also recall that they were sued for ageism years ago after a round of layoffs. Afterward they preemptively sent out a list of the ages and titles of all workers prior to layoffs in order to be more transparent. The funny thing is that it was possible in some cases to tell ahead of time who was being laid off based on the age and title. Not a good way to find out about being let go.

Re: Feds: IBM did discriminate against older workers in making layoffs

#48

Post by kevin_thibedeau »

socrates1998 wrote: post #17

The big tech giants have used this marketing ploy that "older workers don't understand new tech" to undercut them at almost every opportunity. I honestly have no idea why they are allowed to get away with this in the media and public opinion. Maybe because older people don't know new tech, so they think older programmers don't know it either? It's insane to me that an older programmer with decades of experience and m…

The math is simple: Replace a senior salary with 2 H1Bs for (hopefully) 1.5x productivity. 2 weeks vacation, no family, and no health issues makes for the ideal servant.

Re: Feds: IBM did discriminate against older workers in making layoffs

#49

Post by syspec »

duxup wrote: post #20

A fellow older classmate of mine and I were looking for work after changing careers. We were talking about his recent interview when he got a call from the recruiter and put her on speakerphone. She told them they were going with someone else because they thought the other person "fit the culture" better. He asked if she could give some feedback on what that meant and she flat out said "Some people thought you were t…

Maybe you should have used the old: How do you do, fellow new grads?

Re: Feds: IBM did discriminate against older workers in making layoffs

#50

Post by Nasrudith »

PragmaticPulp wrote: post #18
liability wrote: post #2

Not surprising. Years ago one of my (gray haired) mentors opened my eyes to ageism in this industry by asking me to pay attention to how many programmers in the office have gray hair. Once you start looking for it, it becomes obvious that age discrimination is rampant. Some blame the young workforce on the industry being young, but the industry is decades old at this point so I don't think that excuse holds water.

I've worked at companies where older people are rarely seen, but I've also worked at companies where older developers are the norm. In fact, I started my career at a company where I was one of the few people under the age of 40. I don't have any statistics to support this, but I've wondered if workers tend to congregate by age groups at different companies. That is, if employees prefer to work with coworkers around t…

Consulting is infamous for being a "greybeard accumulator" where the stereotypical career path is that they either to to management or consulting. Client expectations seem to play a part in it that they at times seem to feel dissatisfied at a younger consultant who don't prove themself to be an all solving savant while tolerating a broader range of outcomes from an elder one.

I know one attempt to have a sub visibly middle aged programmer local talent maximia who know the local language didn't work out as well compared to a former technician consultant who operated a bit more rote standards familarity.

There may have been conflating other skillsets including social. To put it crudely the programmer was slightly jerkish, the former technician apparently always wasn't the sharpest tool in the shed. Regardless the bias seemed to reinforce itself from clients.

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