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Feds: IBM did discriminate against older workers in making layoffs

wraltechwire.com

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Re: Feds: IBM did discriminate against older workers in making layoffs

#31

Post by mylons »

mikelyons wrote: post #13
toomuchtodo wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Who knew it's outrageous to expect work life balance and reasonable compensation for experience.

The incentive structure of unregulated capitalism is "Extract maximum value with minimum expense. As much as possible externalize the costs." The things to extract value from: employees, environment, government policy, tax code, if I was smarter I'd think of a few others.

you have my name, and my views. I don't know how to feel about this. there's some solace in knowing Mike Lyons is an extraordinarily popular name though.

Re: Feds: IBM did discriminate against older workers in making layoffs

#33

Post by mcguire »

mikelyons wrote: post #15
ska wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You can generate a lot of revenue with workers with less experience, even factoring in mistakes, lower productivity and output, etc. It's not at all clear that there a net gain here, so the situation is at best complex.

In what way is the net gain not clear here? It seems clear to me that "even factoring in" means that there is a net gain for the employer, at a net loss to employees.

Timescale.

An older employee with experience can often see and avoid problems before they occur. A younger, inexperienced employee will not and will have to find the problem and attempt to fix it, usually three or four times before the problem is actually solved.

So, for six or twelve months, the employer can sail along gloriously, enjoying the benefits of cheaper employees. Until the bill comes due. And at that time no one can really help them except their current employees, who are the only ones who understand the history-dependent system they've built.

Fortunately, the time scales that most employers operate at rarely exceeds six to twelve months.

Re: Feds: IBM did discriminate against older workers in making layoffs

#34

Post by Causality1 »

flowerlad wrote: post #21
duxup wrote: post #20

A fellow older classmate of mine and I were looking for work after changing careers. We were talking about his recent interview when he got a call from the recruiter and put her on speakerphone. She told them they were going with someone else because they thought the other person "fit the culture" better. He asked if she could give some feedback on what that meant and she flat out said "Some people thought you were t…

What would happen if you lied about your age (eliminate the first 10 years from your resume), both at the time of applying for the job and after joining the company? How much trouble can you get in for that? It doesn't seem unethical at all.

Every job I've ever gotten I had to provide ID.

Re: Feds: IBM did discriminate against older workers in making layoffs

#35

Post by hellisothers »

commandlinefan wrote: post #26
socrates1998 wrote: post #17

The big tech giants have used this marketing ploy that "older workers don't understand new tech" to undercut them at almost every opportunity. I honestly have no idea why they are allowed to get away with this in the media and public opinion. Maybe because older people don't know new tech, so they think older programmers don't know it either? It's insane to me that an older programmer with decades of experience and m…

> cheaper, contractor rates. Are contractors cheaper than permanent employees? I always thought it was the opposite - that's why so many positions are "contract to hire". They'd rather have a perm employee, but they want to deal with contracting for a few months just to be on the safe side.

The literal dollars per hour worked is often higher For a contract employee but the company isn’t paying into PTO or other benefits especially healthcare and I think (?) an employer has to pay higher costs in healthcare is their workers are expected to cost more (or older). So hiring older workers back as contractors can save $$$

Re: Feds: IBM did discriminate against older workers in making layoffs

#36

Post by PragmaticPulp »

It appears that IBM executives specifically told managers to direct layoffs at older workers to make room for younger hires. And apparently they did so in recorded communications:

> The investigation uncovered top-down messaging from Respondent’s highest ranks directing managers to engage in an aggressive approach to significantly reduce the headcount of older workers to make room for Early Professional Hires.

Re: Feds: IBM did discriminate against older workers in making layoffs

#38

Post by [deleted] »

Causality1 wrote: post #34
flowerlad wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What would happen if you lied about your age (eliminate the first 10 years from your resume), both at the time of applying for the job and after joining the company? How much trouble can you get in for that? It doesn't seem unethical at all.

Every job I've ever gotten I had to provide ID.

[deleted]

Re: Feds: IBM did discriminate against older workers in making layoffs

#40

Post by Nasrudith »

socrates1998 wrote: post #17

The big tech giants have used this marketing ploy that "older workers don't understand new tech" to undercut them at almost every opportunity. I honestly have no idea why they are allowed to get away with this in the media and public opinion. Maybe because older people don't know new tech, so they think older programmers don't know it either? It's insane to me that an older programmer with decades of experience and m…

Individual perception of fairness being mutually exclusive in aggregate probably have to do with it. To the old being paid the same as the young can be viewed as unfair because they do a better job.

Younger workers can see older programmers getting paid more but don't neccesarily see much "better" from them (who is right varies by individual and field of course). It can come across as gatekeeping in "paying their dues" instead of actual capabilities or lack of them holding them back which breeds resentment.

Of course at large there are configurations every which way in practice across varied workforces: underpaying older hires in bias of new, overpaying old in bias, putting arbitrary caps on promption to upper management regardless of prior successes for being too young, refusal to promote elders for fear of their retitement disrupting despite the project being short term and all sorts of dysfunctions at scales small to titanic.

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