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Why do so many people want us back in the office?

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Re: Why do so many people want us back in the office?

#531

Post by eganist »

asdfasgasdgasdg wrote: post #527
sriku wrote: post #514

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"more important" than they are for short stints of the lockdown intervention. I'm not dismissing first order effects. They are important. However higher order effects are where feedback cycles usually reside (ex: whats happening with climate change). So ignoring them is not a good idea even if during the initial phases it might seem like obsessing over details. In poorer countries, we can't ignore the risk of people…

> whats happening with climate change I'm not aware of any particular evidence that "second order effects" are driving climate change or causing feedback cycles. But I suppose it depends how you define it. What do you have in mind here?

Not the OP, but I've got a pretty concrete example of how these effects can potentially slow down human-driven climate change, which is what they were likely referring to.

An immediate first-order effect is a lack of air travel.

A resulting second-order effect will be the eventual shift in aircraft buying trends, pricing, scheduling, etc. to adjust to diminished air travel, something that cements more concretely the travel patterns we're adopting during the pandemic. Examples may include smaller but more fuel efficient planes, but also potentially ordering far less of them (we're seeing this now - https://www.reuters.com/article/us-american-airline-outlook/...) as well as possibly shifting seat availability in favor of business and premium classes to extract more value from people who do fly...

...which loops (to the OP's point) back into keeping more people from flying as a third-order effect.

---

Et voila, significantly reduced air travel and a significant aid in our fight against climate change.

Re: Why do so many people want us back in the office?

#532

Post by bob1029 »

01100011 wrote: post #140

I would be in favor of a number of working arrangements, ranging from working in a Bay Area office full-time(least favorite) to working from home most-time in an area that provides me with the chance to buy a home and have a reasonable commute to a satellite office. I am absolutely, 100% against full-time WFH in an expensive, low-quality(no sound/thermal insulation) Bay Area apartment without a dedicated workspace. >…

This final point is so important. I have been full-time WFH for the last ~6 years, and 2020 is by far and above 10x worse than any prior year. My immediate environment has not changed much, but the disruptions elsewhere have added up to quite the psychological burden.

Re: Why do so many people want us back in the office?

#533

Post by doublerabbit »

happyjack wrote: post #523

I'm probably going to get a lot of flack for this comment, but it's my honest opinion. People want you in the office so they can babysit you. They don't care about performance; they care about politics. I know, I know, your company is different. You all are equal and it's about saving the world, man. But here's the honest to god truth; Karin the office manager wants to save her job and has zero leg to stand on sendin…

Amazonian if you work for Amazon.

Re: Why do so many people want us back in the office?

#534

Post by TheOtherHobbes »

m-p-3 wrote: post #516
mancerayder wrote: post #392

This is a complicated problem with different perspectives that no doubt will get muddled at some point. I'm confident at least the following is true: Some people have long commutes and wfh is great Others have small, expensive apartments they paid for shorter commutes and it's suffocating 40-50 hours a week Some people live in palaces and offices are a step down in comfort Some people are happy with the online intera…

> Some people have long commutes and wfh is great This is exactly my situation, it takes me two hours of commute per day to get in the office, and the housing is prohibitively expensive the closer you get to it. My quality of life is significantly improved by WFH, which leaves me with more quality time with my kids and to cook.

The office model is based on the factory model, which was constrained by the need to have people, machinery, and raw materials in the same location.

Offices don't require that. All the soft benefits - water cooler chats, and so on - are balanced by disbenefits of expensive commutes and even more expensive real estate.

So the experience becomes a lot more individual. Some people are happy, others aren't.

Since most corps care more about productivity and costs than happiness, the final decision will be made by the cost savings.

If productivity drops by (maybe) 20% while costs drop by (maybe) 50%, it's likely wfh will become much more of a thing.

Some corps are already giving up on centralised office space - either permanently, or in the hope they can run remote for a year or two and renegotiate much lower rents and/or ownerships costs then.

Of course this assumes the (maybe) 20% productivity costs won't be cumulative. But given the insane costs of office space, I suspect we'll see a lot of corps trying the experiment and attempting to make the best of it.

So IMO anyone who is expecting things to go back to "normal" soon is going to be waiting at least a couple of years, and possibly forever - and should make plans accordingly. This applies equally to everyone, from CEOs to interns to freelancers.

Re: Why do so many people want us back in the office?

#535

Post by Viliam1234 »

himinlomax wrote: post #484
sriku wrote: post #447

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most of these are what one might call "first order effects" - i.e. factors immediately associatable with work location. For prolonged situation, higher order effects are going to become more important. Here are some candidates - 1. Improvement in city air quality due to reduced commute - road and flight. 2. Erosion of "social credits" over time due to lower bandwidth interactions when remote. 3. Cumulative impact of…

> bad eating habits I have much better food at home than whatever shit I can buy at or near the office.

> I have much better food at home

And it's probably also cheaper. For 5 € I can either buy a small lunch for myself, or cook for the entire family. With less salt, and more vegetables.

Re: Why do so many people want us back in the office?

#536

Post by nswest23 »

mancerayder wrote: post #392

This is a complicated problem with different perspectives that no doubt will get muddled at some point. I'm confident at least the following is true: Some people have long commutes and wfh is great Others have small, expensive apartments they paid for shorter commutes and it's suffocating 40-50 hours a week Some people live in palaces and offices are a step down in comfort Some people are happy with the online intera…

sorry nuance like this doesn't fit in a headline this just won't work /s

Re: Why do so many people want us back in the office?

#537

Post by williamdclt »

alister wrote: post #463
Cd00d wrote: post #438

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the current WFH and restrictions are especially hard on the sales teams. No more client dinners, golf, or travel for a demo, and it's much harder to make the relationship over phone or zoom. Plus, the handshake is missing.

Doesn't this put everyone on an equal footing? You can't take your client for golf or shake hands, but neither can your competitor. Though I can imagine a scenario where it's equally bad for everyone. For example, if the client needs an in-person demo to understand how the widget works or to be convinced that it's useful, but no seller is offering an in-person demo, then the client may decide to not buy it from anybo…

> Doesn't this put everyone on an equal footing

Maybe it does, but that doesn't make people's job that were heavily relationship-focussed more enjoyable

Re: Why do so many people want us back in the office?

#538

Post by rocketpastsix »

mancerayder wrote: post #392

This is a complicated problem with different perspectives that no doubt will get muddled at some point. I'm confident at least the following is true: Some people have long commutes and wfh is great Others have small, expensive apartments they paid for shorter commutes and it's suffocating 40-50 hours a week Some people live in palaces and offices are a step down in comfort Some people are happy with the online intera…

>Cities are nervous that business districts are devastated since no one buys coffee, lunches or walks home and steps into a shoe store or tailor, or to a bar for drinks with colleagues.

I think this is more true than a lot of people think/or care to make known.

I know the business district in my city, Nashville, is hurting right now.

Re: Why do so many people want us back in the office?

#539

Post by HenryBemis »

cik wrote: post #472
ink_13 wrote: post #462

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Impact on the body - prolonged unmoderated sitting in bad postures Hey, this is me! I developed tendonitis in the shoulders from sitting in a lounge chair all day, and now I work with a physiotherapist who gave me funny looking exercises I do twice a day to retrain my body to get my hands behind my back (and other forms of shoulder mobility). Ergo is not a joke, friends.

For years, everyone I know has made fun of me for the extreme ergo choices I've made in my workspaces, based on my needs. I've had a standing desk for over a decade, and I never sit down - purely because that works for me. I know someone else with the same setup, because at 4'11, she finally gets a desk she can lower to the proper height. I've been using the right keyboard/pointer combination for me since 2000, and I…

Standind desks rock!! And you get the added bonus of wanted to minimize the (mostly unpaid) overtime!

Re: Why do so many people want us back in the office?

#540

Post by dominotw »

mancerayder wrote: post #392

This is a complicated problem with different perspectives that no doubt will get muddled at some point. I'm confident at least the following is true: Some people have long commutes and wfh is great Others have small, expensive apartments they paid for shorter commutes and it's suffocating 40-50 hours a week Some people live in palaces and offices are a step down in comfort Some people are happy with the online intera…

I just want to take a nap in the afternoon.
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