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Why do so many people want us back in the office?

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Re: Why do so many people want us back in the office?

#521

Post by ghaff »

pjc50 wrote: post #489
mancerayder wrote: post #392

This is a complicated problem with different perspectives that no doubt will get muddled at some point. I'm confident at least the following is true: Some people have long commutes and wfh is great Others have small, expensive apartments they paid for shorter commutes and it's suffocating 40-50 hours a week Some people live in palaces and offices are a step down in comfort Some people are happy with the online intera…

There's lots of reasons why individuals themselves might want or not want to go back in the office. What is more complicated is why they want to take everyone else with them. My own employer is letting some people come back in the office but not insisting on it. And all of this in the context of the trilemma: try for zero virus, accept total spread with associated medical costs, time off, deaths, and potential long t…

>What is more complicated is why they want to take everyone else with them.

Probably because what other people do affects them.

If everyone else on their team comes back to the office and they choose not to, that's probably not an ideal situation.

Conversely, if they come back to the office and most of the people they work with don't, they're now effectively in a co-working situation where the office is just a physical space and they'll still be on video meetings all the time.

Re: Why do so many people want us back in the office?

#522

Post by ghaff »

woodson wrote: post #482
maigret wrote: post #251

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, and... I’d be curious to see which digital nomads follow the local taxes regulations. It’s easy to get in trouble with working abroad.

Fully agreed, taxes and work permit/visa are topics that are likely being neglected by most. Often, there simply isn’t a visa category that allows individuals to work for foreign entities while residing in another country, as regular work visas are for employment with an entity based in the country.

>regular work visas are for employment with an entity based in the country

Usually true. Although some countries (like China) do have a business visa that you're supposed to get if you're e.g. attending a business event.

With a US passport traveling to countries for example, there's nothing keeping you from visiting for a month or two and working from a short-term rental. I don't know all the theoretical rules that may exist but I know traveling partly/fully on business, people obviously do work for their US company all the time without filing any special paperwork.

Re: Why do so many people want us back in the office?

#523

Post by happyjack »

I'm probably going to get a lot of flack for this comment, but it's my honest opinion. People want you in the office so they can babysit you. They don't care about performance; they care about politics. I know, I know, your company is different. You all are equal and it's about saving the world, man. But here's the honest to god truth; Karin the office manager wants to save her job and has zero leg to stand on sending out emails about the kitchen fridge being dirty if you all are from home. Accountants and paper pushers can't push more paper when they have no artificial hierarchy when you all are at home. The engineer team manager is having a hard time managing you all in your home offices. It's all about politics. I think I remember reading in Yuval's book "Sapians" that humans can only organize around 100 people until they have to have some kind of shared myth. That shared myth can be religion, etc. etc. OR it can be in the form of being a "Googleon" or "IBM'er."

Re: Why do so many people want us back in the office?

#525

Post by ghaff »

jen729w wrote: post #335
danans wrote: post #236

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> 2. You can't mix WFH with work in office. It's either one or the other. If you have a single employee working remotely - you should transform all the processes to WFH-style. You don't provide the line of thinking behind this statement. Why do you think this is the case? Also, even taking your statement at face value, you can still have a setup where there are fewer days in the office and more days working from home…

This is what I came here to say. As usual, arguments (just in the general) are polarised: it’s either in the office 40 hours a week or work from a beach in Thailand and nothing in between. How about the sensible reality where we have an office, that we can get to, but we aren’t expected to turn up there every day just because? Where I work from home a few days a week to get that tricky stuff done – heaps harder in a…

>saves my employer ~50% of their office space. Win-win, surely?

Only if you hotel, which a lot of people don't want.

In general, I agree with you. But if that's the norm it means people still need to live at least somewhat accessible to the office. For even one day per week, a 3 hour each way commute isn't really sustainable.

And what if a team consists almost entirely of people who want to come in 3 or 4 days per week? They'll likely end up just ghosting the one person who will reluctantly drag themselves in 1 day per week.

Re: Why do so many people want us back in the office?

#526

Post by ghaff »

ec109685 wrote: post #457
nocman wrote: post #453

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> 2. You can't mix WFH with work in office. It's either one or the other. If you have a single employee working remotely - you should transform all the processes to WFH-style. ^ This is not true. Where I work we have a mix of people who work exclusively from home, some who work some days at home and some in-office, and some who work exclusively from the office. This is including managers (some of whom like working fr…

Is it better now that everyone is working from home now?

Not in general of course but in the way you're asking, yes.

My broader team was already pretty distributed around North America and Europe already. And other groups I work with were pretty distributed as well. But some were in offices and would do calls from conference rooms. It is better, to at least some degree, with everyone now on their own camera/microphone. (And in fact a couple sub-teams already had a rule that everyone did calls from their own computer/phone.)

Re: Why do so many people want us back in the office?

#527

Post by asdfasgasdgasdg »

sriku wrote: post #514
dlkf wrote: post #507

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> For prolonged situation, higher order effects are going to become more important. More important for what? And for whom? Someone who just shaved 100% off of their 70-minute commute probably doesn't give a fuck that their awareness of the "local geography" (see: trash-draped blackberry bushes on the highway shoulder) is "eroding." Some of your points are legit (particularly 6), but your dismissal of what you call "f…

"more important" than they are for short stints of the lockdown intervention. I'm not dismissing first order effects. They are important. However higher order effects are where feedback cycles usually reside (ex: whats happening with climate change). So ignoring them is not a good idea even if during the initial phases it might seem like obsessing over details. In poorer countries, we can't ignore the risk of people…

> whats happening with climate change

I'm not aware of any particular evidence that "second order effects" are driving climate change or causing feedback cycles. But I suppose it depends how you define it. What do you have in mind here?

Re: Why do so many people want us back in the office?

#528

Post by ck425 »

sjy wrote: post #208
danielrhodes wrote: post #177

Outside of the pandemic, I think a company doing remote/WFH carries with it some implications people don’t seem to talk about - namely that your physical workspace and equipment used is capital, and the company is not compensating employees for the use of that capital. If a company does not need to maintain office space, that is a huge expense they don’t have to pay for - but an employee is paying for it. Right now y…

Companies don’t compensate employees for the cost of their commute either. I don’t see the big deal here; the marginal cost of working from home is often pretty close to zero.

It's really not. The costs of commuting and wfh vary dramatically between individuals.

In my case I have no commuting costs, I run or walk to work. Hell it's actually slightly cheaper as I showered at work 5 days a week.

The costs of wfh during winter however are massive as I live in an old northerly city where well insulated flats simply don't exist. Plus my flat is mostly one room, with massive windows and has electric heating. There's no affordable way to insulate it and heating it an extra 8 hours a day will cost £80-100 a month.

Re: Why do so many people want us back in the office?

#529

Post by dorfsmay »

Xelbair wrote: post #505
sriku wrote: post #447

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most of these are what one might call "first order effects" - i.e. factors immediately associatable with work location. For prolonged situation, higher order effects are going to become more important. Here are some candidates - 1. Improvement in city air quality due to reduced commute - road and flight. 2. Erosion of "social credits" over time due to lower bandwidth interactions when remote. 3. Cumulative impact of…

>4. Impact on the body - prolonged unmoderated sitting in bad postures, eye strain due to constant staring into the screen, bad eating habits, etc. I actually lost weight and improved my posture when WFH, and i do have better eating habbits now(being able to cook a warm not pre-ready meal for breakfast is a godsend)

This! Also trading the time wasted commuting for exercising.

Re: Why do so many people want us back in the office?

#530

Post by ghaff »

XorNot wrote: post #401
ghaff wrote: post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If anything, I'd expect offices more built around sometimes meeting and collaborating--not butts in seats all day. I can imagine hot-desking plus a lot of enclaves and meeting rooms.

Hot desking is a damn plague on offices, and the reason WFH has been so nice. No hot-desking. My space is my own and I can make it the way I want, leave what I want around and not worry about theft etc.

If, as some are suggesting, a lot of people end up coming into the office one or two days a week, how could hot desking not be widely adopted?
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