Apple: Apps should not require users to opt into tracking to access content • Hacker News Board

Re: Apple: Apps should not require users to opt into tracking to access content

#251

Post by nodamage » Sat, Sep 12, 2020, 8:19 PM UTC

gamblor956 wrote: post #249

nodamage wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have read the case in its entirety, see the entire section under B. Market definition: Alleged "Mac OS-capable computers" market . (It's true that Psystar's attempt to establish "Mac OS" as a single-brand market in section A also failed , but that is not what I am referring to here.) If you have a more substantive criticism feel free to elaborate in more detail, otherwise making a drive by comment to accuse someone…

As the case turned on the plaintiff's failure to establish a single brand market, I stand by my original comment.

It doesn't sound like you actually understand the relevant aspects of the case. Psystar made multiple counterclaims, including a claim of tying between "Mac OS" and "Mac OS-capable computers". A tying claim requires establishing the existence of two separate product markets, which is why the court analyzed both the "Mac OS" market and the "Mac OS-capable computers" market separately. Ultimately both markets were found to be invalid. The "Mac OS-capable computers" market is a wholly derivative aftermarket of the "Mac OS" market and the reasoning for why it was ruled invalid is also relevant.

Re: Apple: Apps should not require users to opt into tracking to access content

#252

Post by dathinab » Sat, Sep 12, 2020, 8:39 PM UTC

a1369209993 wrote: post #197

dathinab wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But this also excludes letting the user chose between either watching ads or paying for the content. A not very well working but reasonable business model. Why is it incompatible? Because getting access to normally payed-extra-for content by watching apps means receiving a "monetary or other compensation"

> this also excludes letting the user chose between either watching ads or paying for the content. Good. They should clairify that content not available by paying also counts as "monetary or other compensation" for watching ads. Advertising delenda est.

No not good, not everyone can or want afford paying for content.

You should have the freedom to choose to pay by having ads.

At least as long as it's a actually free and fair choice, i.e. the non ad payments are not overpriced.

Re: Apple: Apps should not require users to opt into tracking to access content

#253

Post by dathinab » Sat, Sep 12, 2020, 8:56 PM UTC

systemvoltage wrote: post #131

dathinab wrote: post #25

I do not think Apple should have the power to do such decisions. I do not like tracking at all. But I think this is something which needs to be handled by governments (laws/regulations) not by apple forcing their opinion about what is right onto everyone else by abusing their marked positions. In this case it might be beneficial for the users. In others cases it was not beneficial for the users at all but only for ap…

I completely disagree. I want Apple to have complete control over my device because the alternatives are absolutely horrifying - ransomeware attacks, blackmailing to get my photos back, contact list sold off in an auction, etc. This is not a linux PC. Average joes and jills are not avid users with understanding of security. Think billions of users, not just HN community of 30k developers.

How did you jump from advertisement related stuff to ransomware, blackmail and similar?

Android allows many things Apple doesn't, including alternative app stores and there is no massive problem with ransomware, blackmailing and similar.

On the other hand do you really think you contacts are not sold of if you sync them with e.g. WhatsApp on a apple device?

No one ever said that phones should not run apps in a sandbox or not have a permissions system or not have opinionated app store(s!) or not throw warnings at users when side-loading apps or similar.

It's about apple being a quasi monopoly for millions of phones which today are the most commonly spread and used general purpose computers. And it's about Apple abusing that power for their own benefit sometimes also in ways which happen to profit the end-user.

Allows third party app stores and apple can do whatever they want in their App store. And yes most people still would mainly use the Apple app stores. (And yes you might still allow Apple to "ban"/"reject" third party app stores which act malicious/abusiveness. But on legal basis. I.e. if they ban a third party Appstore the banned company must be able to sue for damages if the ban is found to be baseless. And no absurd arbitrary max damages TOS clause like there currently is).

Re: Apple: Apps should not require users to opt into tracking to access content

#254

Post by danShumway » Sat, Sep 12, 2020, 9:22 PM UTC

saagarjha wrote: post #216

danShumway wrote: post #203

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a very good policy, I wish they'd follow it for their own systems. To download free apps off the Mac app store I need to set up an account and provide Apple with an email address, physical address, and phone number. Apps like the Wireguard GUI don't have access to necessary system APIs outside of the app store, so the developers have no way to allow users to sidestep giving Apple that information. I'm forced to…

> Apps like the Wireguard GUI don't have access to necessary system APIs outside of the app store Wait, on macOS ? You’re saying the store gives you extra permissions there?

Yes: https://lists.zx2c4.com/pipermail/wireguard/2019-February/00...

Re: Apple: Apps should not require users to opt into tracking to access content

#255

Post by danShumway » Sat, Sep 12, 2020, 9:31 PM UTC

cschep wrote: post #210

danShumway wrote: post #203

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a very good policy, I wish they'd follow it for their own systems. To download free apps off the Mac app store I need to set up an account and provide Apple with an email address, physical address, and phone number. Apps like the Wireguard GUI don't have access to necessary system APIs outside of the app store, so the developers have no way to allow users to sidestep giving Apple that information. I'm forced to…

Put in fake data and move on with your life?

Fake phone number that can recieve verification codes over SMS and allow me to respond to them?

If you know an online service that provides that without also requiring me to give it a bunch of personal information, please let me know.

Re: Apple: Apps should not require users to opt into tracking to access content

#256

Post by danShumway » Sat, Sep 12, 2020, 9:42 PM UTC

aspenmayer wrote: post #211

danShumway wrote: post #203

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a very good policy, I wish they'd follow it for their own systems. To download free apps off the Mac app store I need to set up an account and provide Apple with an email address, physical address, and phone number. Apps like the Wireguard GUI don't have access to necessary system APIs outside of the app store, so the developers have no way to allow users to sidestep giving Apple that information. I'm forced to…

These links may help you with your issues. https://apple.stackexchange.com/questions/72145/can-i-instal... https://apple.stackexchange.com/questions/42353/can-mac-app-... https://apple.stackexchange.com/questions/59479/can-mac-app-...

Command line automation isn't the issue I'm having, the issue I'm having is being able to download without making an Apple account.

Sideloading would be helpful if Mac app store apps were made available as sideloaded apps anywhere. But I'm going to hazard a guess that Wireguard would not be permitted to provide those downloads -- I haven't been able to find a download link anywhere. And I'm seeing conflicting information online about whether or not sideloading even works for some apps unless the Apple IDs are shared between computers.

I suppose that I could try to compile the Wireguard app from source, but for all I know, running XCode will require an account as well.

All of these solutions are less work than manually managing the network interfaces myself. It's just kind of crappy that a privacy-oriented company is forcing me to do so. I shouldn't have to outsmart my Mac to get work done.

Re: Apple: Apps should not require users to opt into tracking to access content

#257

Post by danShumway » Sat, Sep 12, 2020, 9:44 PM UTC

unishark wrote: post #212

danShumway wrote: post #203

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a very good policy, I wish they'd follow it for their own systems. To download free apps off the Mac app store I need to set up an account and provide Apple with an email address, physical address, and phone number. Apps like the Wireguard GUI don't have access to necessary system APIs outside of the app store, so the developers have no way to allow users to sidestep giving Apple that information. I'm forced to…

I read the requirement as not applying to free apps. You can either require people to give you info to monetize or you can charge a fee, but not both.

Maybe, but this computer cost money, so even if that is their requirement Apple is still violating the spirit of their own rules.

I have to pay money for a piece of hardware and give a bunch of personal information to Apple, just to download a free app on the hardware that I paid for?

Re: Apple: Apps should not require users to opt into tracking to access content

#258

Post by danShumway » Sat, Sep 12, 2020, 9:48 PM UTC

stjohnswarts wrote: post #247

danShumway wrote: post #203

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a very good policy, I wish they'd follow it for their own systems. To download free apps off the Mac app store I need to set up an account and provide Apple with an email address, physical address, and phone number. Apps like the Wireguard GUI don't have access to necessary system APIs outside of the app store, so the developers have no way to allow users to sidestep giving Apple that information. I'm forced to…

Yeah if they practiced what they preached you could go to the apple store, pay cash for your laptop. Then once home if you wanted some paid apps you could open up appstore over your super high tech vpn (or even tor browser) path with digital currency and download your app without apple ever knowing who you are. That is the ideal, even better would be to let me order the old fashioned way with a money order with a fak…

I would love a way to anonymously purchase apps, but I'm not even asking for that much accomodation.

I would tolerate giving Apple billing information to purchase an app. I don't understand why I need billing information to download a free app that doesn't cost any money. There's no transaction for Apple to verify.

And I don't understand why I need to give Apple a phone number of any of this.

I'm not even asking for an ideal world, just a very slightly less crappy one; Apple objectively does not need my phone number to let me hit a download link. That serves no purpose, it's a completely unrelated step to the task I'm trying to perform.

Re: Apple: Apps should not require users to opt into tracking to access content

#259

Post by JiNCMG » Sat, Sep 12, 2020, 11:40 PM UTC

redxdev wrote: post #194

JiNCMG wrote: post #187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just as bad is the puppet master behind Epic... Tencent. They are dying to get all of their WeChat apps into iOS.

Christ, what is with people thinking Tencent is behind Epic? They don't have a majority stake in Epic - Tim Sweeney does. There's zero evidence that anything Epic has done and is doing is driven by Tencent. Maybe argue about what Epic is doing based on its own merits, rather than some baseless conspiracy about Tencent.

And Tencent approached Spotify and others investments to join in on court case.

Re: Apple: Apps should not require users to opt into tracking to access content

#260

Post by yazaddaruvala » Sun, Sep 13, 2020, 12:05 AM UTC

fulafel wrote: post #241

yazaddaruvala wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My previous experience with the PlayStore might have been different than yours. In the context of this guideline and other user focused non-tracking/permissions related things, the PlayStore is “already at bottom”.

So more like race to the top?

Races to the top are significantly slower, but possible.

Trust building is really, really hard.