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I don’t have time for coding challenges

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Re: I don’t have time for coding challenges

#231
post #207
post #94

You're complaining that, to get a job, you have to demonstrate your ability to do the job, in a standardized way so the employer can compare you to other candidates with the merest hint of objectivity. For a little (imperfect) contrast, here's a quote from an article about auditioning for the Baltimore Symphony: > In the audition I took in October of 2014 for the Baltimore Symphony, I began preparing the required aud…

> You're complaining that, to get a job, you have to demonstrate your ability to do the job That's not generally what people complain in these interview threads. The complaint is that to get a software job one must demonstrate a performance skill 100% unrelated to the actual job. It's as if a surgeon with 20 years experience in his specialty would be interviewed by making them balance chemical reaction equations. Sur…

Lots of software interview practices would never fly in the medical world:

Take home tests, work samples, and coding challenges are like asking a surgeon with 20 years experience to remove someone's appendix at home as proof that they are competent.

Whiteboard coding is like asking them to remove someone's appendix on the spot with a 30 minute timer running while a bored other surgeon pays attention to which tools he or she uses.

Re: I don’t have time for coding challenges

#232
post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I cannot give every application 1-2 hours of review if I get 100+ resumes. This is perhaps the biggest misconception of hiring, that out of some misguided notion of "fairness" or "objectivity" you have to treat every candidate exactly the same. In theory it seems like a good principle, but the road to hell is paved in good intentions. In practice, this results in arbitrarily designed standard tests which are only s…

How do you "quickly go through" a stack of 100 resumes and choose a handful of top candidates in a way that is not subject to personal (conscious or unconscious) bias? I remember an interview training exercise, which also covered resume screening. Each person got the same stack of resumes, and the instructor said, "You have 60 seconds to pick out the top 3 you'd like to bring in for an interview. Find them." At the e…

> How do you "quickly go through" a stack of 100 resumes

Well, by quickly I didn't mean only 60 seconds. :-)

> in a way that is not subject to personal (conscious or unconscious) bias?

In my opinion, a common conceit is that it's possible to design a process that is not subject to bias. It's not possible. There will be bias, no matter what process you choose. It's thought that "quiz show" style interviews are "objective", but if you look at the results, they're clearly not helping. They're not increasing diversity. The poor results speak for themselves. So then some people look at the results of this so-called "fair" process and conclude that minorities are just worse at coding, because that's what the tests say. To me, that approach and attitude is even worse than just acknowledging personal bias.

The only way to try to counteract unconscious bias is to be conscious of it. Admit it, and keep it in mind while you're going through your hiring process. Keep it in mind while you're filtering the résumés. Keep it in mind while you're interviewing. But don't try to pretend like you can eliminate it entirely from the process, because then you're just deluding yourself and everyone else.

Re: I don’t have time for coding challenges

#233
post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The probationary period seems incredibly stressful for the employee. If I am currently employed I would never switch to a role that uses a probationary period as a significant evaluation step because of the risks of leaving my stable employment, and not passing your probationary period. As an employer I wouldn’t want to limit my selection to people that either are unemployed or have a higher personal risk tolerance t…

Exactly. Not to mention younger engineers will probably work 24/7 for 12 weeks while constantly worrying they could be fired tomorrow because they didn't fix some bug fast enough.

Not to mention it eliminates anyone who already has a job from the candidate pool. No company I know would be OK with you also working full time at another company simultaneously.

Re: I don’t have time for coding challenges

#234
post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I disagree with this, somewhat. Adam Smith, in Wealth of Nations, reminds us that there are a lot of factors that go into determining the desirability of a certain job, and that wages reflect this. The butcher earns more than the baker, Smith reasons, in part because most people would prefer the work of the baker. You have to pay someone enough more to convince them to be a butcher. There are a lot of jobs that pay l…

> The butcher earns more than the baker, Smith reasons, in part because most people would prefer the work of the baker. You have to pay someone enough more to convince them to be a butcher. And the surveillance capitalism developer earns more than the entire village. Ergo the market commands us to all develop surveillance stuff so Saudi Arabia can spy on dissidents and then chop them up in their embassies. But again,…

I will engage with your claim that coding tests aren't making it hard to find developers. I think it is a more important factor than you do.

On a personal level, coding tests are a deterrent for me in applying for new jobs. I have my old copy of data structures and algorithms, and I've gone through "Cracking the Coding Interview." I actually enjoyed it at first. They're interesting and challenging problems. If there were an exam - maybe something similar to the actuarial calculus or probability exams - I'd probably be interested in studying hard for it and passing it.

However, I'm no longer interested in re-loading this information into short term memory in order to take a whiteboard exam. This may be a facet of how my own brain works vs others. I just don't walk around prepared to figure out which elements of a set, when combined after permutation, are equal to an existing member of the set. Or how to find all square sub-matrices with a positive determinant in a larger matrix. I can do these things - I've enjoyed doing them - but for me, it takes a lot of training and prep to re-load it in a way that I'm ready for the 45 minute whiteboard exercise. If it were a proper, lasting exam, I'd be happy to do it, but it's just too random, uncertain, and capriciously scored for me to want to do it anymore. I will note that some people don't have thae same trouble I have with this, and - I really mean this - this may actually indicate that they are better candidates than I am. In short, I need to acknowledge that I may certainly not be the "talent" that anyone is missing out on.

Money makes a difference too, but the reason I brought up Wealth of Nations is to draw your attention to the section "Of Wages and Profit in the different Employments of Labour and Stock" http://geolib.com/smith.adam/won1-10.html

I would recommend the entire article, as Smith breaks down the various factors that can lead to higher or lower wages, but you don't really need to read the whole thing, here's smith's summary:

"THE five following are the principal circumstances which, so far as I have been able to observe, make up for a small pecuniary gain in some employments, and counterbalance a great one in others: first, the agreeableness or disagreeableness of the employments themselves; secondly, the easiness and cheapness, or the difficulty and expense of learning them; thirdly, the constancy or inconstancy of employment in them; fourthly, the small or great trust which must be reposed in those who exercise them; and, fifthly, the probability or improbability of success in them."

Within this matrix, software engineering does have a lot to recommend it. For example, Law requires a very expensive and lengthy graduate degree, whereas software engineering doesn't, even though most successful SE's generally do have some kind of undergraduate, and often graduate, degree in rigorous fields that require a lot more math than law. How people will respond to this (along with other aspects of these two fields) depends a lot on their own personal wiring as well.

Within this matrix, yes, I do think that many people find in person, oral exams, at a whiteboard or at a computer under scrutiny and time pressure, on topics that they often don't know well in advance, evaluated by people whose credentials and skill they don't know in advance... yes, I think many people find that a deterrent, either for applying for new jobs, or entering the field in the first place. Many people consider these on-the-spot exams extremely stressful, especially when they are in person, at a whiteboard. And we go through days of it, and a new round of study, every time we apply for a jbo. Tech interview exams are not the only factor making it harder to attract candidates, but neither are any of the multiple factors identified and elaborated on by Smith. But I absolutely believe they are a factor.

Re: I don’t have time for coding challenges

#235
post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Them: "We've got a coding challenge for you..." Me: "I've got this repo on Github with millions of downloads and 10k stars. It's at least 20k lines of my own code. Would that be good to demonstrate my coding ability?" Them: "Haha, no, that'd be too much work for us. Please do the test instead." Me: "Fine." Then they rejected me because I used GET instead of POST. Clearly that shows I have no idea how to code. That wa…

Seems like you are a brilliant programmer but lack domain knowledge for that specific job.

If you make that assumption based on a single thread comment, you lack domain knowledge on how candidates should be interviewed.

Re: I don’t have time for coding challenges

#236
And I don't have time to hire you. You wouldn't hire a visual artist without seeing their portfolio. I don't hire a software developer until I they can quickly write a program that compiles read and follow a spec, name variables well, take feedback and ask relevant questions. To not test candidates for these skills would be recklessly negligent for my employer.

Re: I don’t have time for coding challenges

#237
post #183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Then they rejected me because I used GET instead of POST. OK, I'm honestly curious here. What was the request, and why did you make such a decision? Do you think it is the right approach in this case, or that it's an insignificant mistake that does not represent a person's understanding of HTTP protocol? I remember hearing about at least one story where using GET instead of POST lead to disastrous consequences, as…

Not the OP, but from my experience teaching web dev, one possible reason is nerves. I’ve seen some of the smartest students make that mistake on an assessment simply because they were under pressure. A simple conversation afterwards shows that they do understand the difference (as expected). In the moment though, sometimes you just have a brain fart.

This really can't be understated. The difference between your how your brain works when you're under the clock and know you're being observed vs. the "natural" flow of a calm working environment is tremendous. Anyone of us who's conducting the interview must do some kind of double-checking of obvious mistakes to fairly account for the limitations of the process.

Re: I don’t have time for coding challenges

#238

I would never work somewhere that didn't make me write code as part of the interview process. I don't want to work with people who are good at bullshitting their way through interviews, but can't actually write code.

This is definitely something to consider. I actually once turned down an offer because I thought their process was too perfunctory. (Along with some other signs.) I didn't like what it implied about how they saw me as an employee/resource nor what it implied about my potential teammates. (And since the process was so minimal I also didn't get much chance to vet the team/working environment.)

Re: I don’t have time for coding challenges

#239

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Currently in NY making 150k with 10yoe at a non-tech company. Would jump ship in a heartbeat to SF for 300k, or 250k, or even 200k.

This legendary meme that everyone in SF is making 300k and drives a Ferrari has taken on a life of its own, and now we even have people outside of the Bay Area believing and repeating it. This is an outlier compensation for senior people at outlier companies. Anyone would jump ship for it, but it's not like hundreds of companies are handing out these salaries at the airport when you land.

Is it? Not sure about 300k, but 200k seems within the realm of realism. I've interviewed at a few Bay Area companies (I'd say they are "mid tier", not FAANG or top tier) and expected comp ranged around 200-250k.

That said, I was actually surprised at the lack of expensive cars driven by SFBA techies. I interviewed at Netflix, which I know pays astoundingly well, and the parking lot had a distinct lack of luxury brand cars. The exception seemed to be Teslas - I did see a bunch of Model S's and X's (Model 3 had not come out yet at the time).

Compare that to many East Coast suburban office campuses of non-tech companies that pay pretty poorly - you still see tons of mid to high end BMWs, Benzes, etc.

Re: I don’t have time for coding challenges

#240

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Eh, each of FAANG will do exactly that (as will other tech companies!). To be charitable to the parent commenter's point, they probably mean articulate in two senses: 1. Speaking perfect English, both fluently and without a heavy accent. 2. Talking about technical topics or other shibboleths with the same cultural affect an American would, as opposed to a foreigner. For example, many Indians will call a phone screen…

Thank you for being charitable. I speak English well enough to fare in FAANG as senior engineer. But I always notice how a native English speaker almost always speak perfect English. They pick the right word to use and many other small things that make their English superb.

You seem to be confusing english speaking ability with the ability to communicate and articulate well. Communication is not about being able to speak english perfectly, it's firstly about listening and understanding the context of requirements. It's about being approachable enough so that the clients/stakeholders want to work with you, and clarify things with you, which in turn leads to a product which is close enough to something that they needed.
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