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I don’t have time for coding challenges

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Re: I don’t have time for coding challenges

#91

Post by scollet »

dhairya wrote: post #53
itronitron wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For advanced roles I'd suggest separating out the evaluation of coding ability from the evaluation of a particular language. Let the candidate pick their language when you want to test how well they can write new code, and then do a separate evaluation of how deep they are on the language and technical stack you are using.

I agree with the sentiment. Honestly we don't check for syntax or even require the code to compile. We let the candidate write puesdo code which usally isn't super far python and javascript implementations of our challenge. We try to pay attention to the types of questions the candidates asks about context of the code and choices they make in designing a solution. That being said i'd be curious how you evaluate gener…

I like to think of the higher level as creative problem solving.

Are they (me in this case) going down rabbit holes? Are they painting a clear picture? Are they communicating that picture? Are they suggesting edge cases? Are they minimizing bloat? Is it too complicated? What are the most important aspects of the design in their eyes? Can they argue for them? Do they understand where a piece fits and if not, do they understand that something has to go there? Can you both step back and definitely outline a logical flow?

There's not always one solution, but the approach counts.

Lower level is logical problem solving.

Can they reason the problem space? Do they start naively? Can they iterate? Can they optimize? Can they explain each of these steps for future iteration? Do you understand what they're writing? Would you work on that code yourself?

There's not always one solution here either, but 90% is getting a naive solution that can be optimized by taking a second look. I feel that the naive should be found in 5-15 minutes and you can spend the rest of the time talking about how to optimize.

I know I'm rehashing what you probably already know, but at a certain point interviewers are just playing games.

If you've found someone you want to work with who can also reason about problems in a timeframe you see fit, well... that to me looks like gold.

I like these questions because that's how real systems are going to be built.

Take-homes are great, but there is just so much effort wasted in the process if the product can't be understood.

Re: I don’t have time for coding challenges

#92

Post by leesec »

frequentnapper wrote: post #72
leesec wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They're really not. It becomes a cat and mouse game where the interviewers know which pool of questions people are studying so they try to invent new ones to prevent people just memorizing the answers. The questions thus end up becoming more and more obscure.

yeah but they're variations on the same stuff. it just allows gaming of the whole process where if you solve enough of those types of questions, you have a better chance of getting in.

Some are variations but some are just more obscure. They definitely get into very specific greedy algoss or things like prim's/kriskals/tarjans. which can be pretty much hit or miss based on if you've seen it or not

Re: I don’t have time for coding challenges

#93

Post by luckylion »

Viliam1234 wrote: post #73
luckylion wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do only those companies complain about a shortage of candidates? Because in the tech centers I know, the market is just empty. Lots of large companies are competing for talent, and if you can't pay bank salaries, you're going to have a hard time. You make it sound like there's plenty of talent around but companies are being snobbish. That's not my experience at all in Germany.

> Lots of large companies are competing for talent, and if you can't pay bank salaries, you're going to have a hard time. Sounds like Economics 101. The curves of supply and demand meet at some point. Some customers can't buy (enough of) the thing because the price at the intersection of the curves is too high for them. Yes, that's how free market works. There are things I can't buy, because they are too expensive fo…

That's all well and good, but that's not the point I was trying to make. Companies aren't having a hard time finding talent because developers are so annoyed by coding interviews, they're having a hard time finding talent because they can't/don't want to pay high salaries.

So developers go to work on finance and ad-tech, and not on normal, boring, only-making-three-times-the-national-average-salary stuff. And those companies then complain that they can't find developers. Because whether they have a coding challenge or not, they can't find developers because money.

Re: I don’t have time for coding challenges

#94

Post by mayoff »

You're complaining that, to get a job, you have to demonstrate your ability to do the job, in a standardized way so the employer can compare you to other candidates with the merest hint of objectivity.

For a little (imperfect) contrast, here's a quote from an article about auditioning for the Baltimore Symphony:

> In the audition I took in October of 2014 for the Baltimore Symphony, I began preparing the required audition list in August.

http://www.bsomusicians.org/public_html/so-you-want-to-audit...

Re: I don’t have time for coding challenges

#95

Post by teeray »

52-6F-62 wrote: post #30

I'm of the opinion that if there needs to be some objective technical challenge to determine a baseline of competency (and there are very many, very strong arguments for that) then there need to be standards. I've encountered so many variables (no pun intended) in technical interviews that I've virtually stopped preparing. There's hardly any way to prepare when the field is so large and you never really know what you…

> ...if there needs to be some objective technical challenge to determine a baseline of competency...then there need to be standards

After having been on both sides of the table, I’ve really come to appreciate the system of licensure used in the trades. I don’t have to quiz an electrician on the electrical code or ask them to wire up a dog house. I also know they have requirements to keep their license active. I’m not sure what that process could be like for software, but it would sure be nice to eliminate the enormous collective waste of time spent (poorly) establishing candidate competency (especially when they have to do it for every single company).

Re: I don’t have time for coding challenges

#96

Post by joeax »

I've been on both sides of the table and I'll tell you a coding challenge is a much better solution than the whiteboard/leetcode/code-on-the-fly during the interview. Just keep it short i.e. 2-4 hours max.

As far as alternatives to a coding challenge, the OP did suggest walking through a prior project on GitHub. I think that's a great idea (in addition to a coding challenge though); an open source project on GitHub is a bonus for a candidate, and will in many cases steer the interviewer to ask questions about your project in lieu of abstract concepts.

Re: I don’t have time for coding challenges

#97

Post by dvtrn »

capkutay wrote: post #85
jasoneckert wrote: post #76

Hiring a bad developer can be a costly mistake. In addition to the costs for the developer, there are often other costs and productivity lost. Basically a good coder is not the same as a good developer. Coding is relatively easy - if you can visualize and solve problems using code, then you're a good developer. It's the thought process that makes you a good developer. Coding challenges are often a good way to test th…

The author's suggestion of a 'trial period' of employment might also be one of the impractical, costly, infeasible ideas I've ever seen proposed. So the candidate doesn't want to spend 1 hour on a coding interview because 'they don't have time.' The solution? Spend a month on-boarding the candidate to your company (taking time from multiple team members), give them an implicitly high stakes work project while they ge…

The author's suggestion of a 'trial period' of employment might also be one of the impractical, costly, infeasible ideas I've ever seen proposed.

Then the world of 1099 IT “technician staffing” and ‘contingency technical recruiting’ will absolutely horrify you because an entire cottage industry unto itself is built around this employment model.

It’s especially popular in call-center workforce management.

Re: I don’t have time for coding challenges

#98

Post by ipnon »

The prevailing opinion in this thread is that coding challenges are fair and equitable. HN was singing a different tune on the same subject just a few months ago. What changed? The economy collapsed. The labor market is no longer in favor of those selling their time and energy. So perceptions of this practice have changed.

Re: I don’t have time for coding challenges

#99

Post by duutfhhh »

luckylion wrote: post #93
Viliam1234 wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Lots of large companies are competing for talent, and if you can't pay bank salaries, you're going to have a hard time. Sounds like Economics 101. The curves of supply and demand meet at some point. Some customers can't buy (enough of) the thing because the price at the intersection of the curves is too high for them. Yes, that's how free market works. There are things I can't buy, because they are too expensive fo…

That's all well and good, but that's not the point I was trying to make. Companies aren't having a hard time finding talent because developers are so annoyed by coding interviews, they're having a hard time finding talent because they can't/don't want to pay high salaries. So developers go to work on finance and ad-tech, and not on normal, boring, only-making-three-times-the-national-average-salary stuff. And those c…

And those small companies would be able to compensate the difference in pay with "partner" status, i.e. making an employee an unfireable stakeholder that can live off profits by the time he or she turns say 45, but owners of said small companies are too greedy for that. I'd argue that opportunistic at-employement with 500k/year at Big4 is worse than guaranteed 250k/year that nobody, not even the company's owners can take from you.

Re: I don’t have time for coding challenges

#100

Post by lhorie »

mayoff wrote: post #94

You're complaining that, to get a job, you have to demonstrate your ability to do the job, in a standardized way so the employer can compare you to other candidates with the merest hint of objectivity. For a little (imperfect) contrast, here's a quote from an article about auditioning for the Baltimore Symphony: > In the audition I took in October of 2014 for the Baltimore Symphony, I began preparing the required aud…

> so the employer can compare

And why do we think this is objective? Ostensibly, the first one to clear some threshold of competence ought to be good enough to be hired (in fact there's even extensively studied algorithms[1] for this stuff). In the vast majority of cases, it's highly unlikely that you're going to find an underpriced genius via some misguided notion of test standardization.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secretary_problem

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