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Pringles tube tries to wake from 'recycling nightmare'

bbc.co.uk

381–390 of 401 posts

Re: Pringles tube tries to wake from 'recycling nightmare'

#381

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You're confusing their LEGAL status with their MORAL obligations. No, I'm saying that considering corporations to be subjects of morality at all is pointless, and that one ought to consider what they want corporations to do to acheive moral ends , and then work to establish structures to at least incentivize that, if not actually constrain them to it. > Just because there's an easy way for a collective of people to…

> No, I'm saying that considering corporations to be subjects of morality at all is pointless Is it pointless to consider political parties to be subjects of morality? Is it meaningless to say "The Nazi Party is bad."? If so, what is meaningfully different between a political party, a corporation, or any other kind of organized collective activity? > It just removes the ability to pass blame for immorality off on to…

> Is it pointless to consider political parties to be subjects of morality?

Yes, though perhaps somewhat less so (I'll address the “perhaps somewhat less so” part later.) What I said further down a sibling thread about corporations applies exactly to political parties as well: “It makes sense to talk about, in any given value framework, the desirability of corporate action, and the morality of any of the individual actors.”

> Is it meaningless to say "The Nazi Party is bad."?

No, if by “is bad” you mean “tends to produce bad outcomes”. In the general sense this is distinct from though correlated with the morality of the persons comprising the party.

> The entire reason individuals organize into groups is because they can do more as a group than they could have accomplished as individuals.

Yes, groups are tools of individuals, not moral actors. It is no more sensible to talk about their morality than it is to talk about the morality of other tools. You can talk about the morality of the people who are using the tool. In some types of groups, many actions of the group are a fairly direct reflection of a moral consensus of the members, and in the case of those actions of those groups one can refer to the morality of the group as a useful shorthand for the morality of the shared position of the membership that is behind the action. This is true of political parties generally in a simplified, idealized view, and frequently enough in a realistic view that it's not always completely pointless to talk about the morality of political parties.

It's almost never true of the complex set of stakeholders with different structural roles that are behind business corporations, especially large and/or broadly held corporations. For any given action of a particular corporation, there might be some group of it's constituents whose morality it fairly directly reflects, but even for actions for which this is the case it won't necessarily be the same group (or even a similarly situated group) from action to action.

Re: Pringles tube tries to wake from 'recycling nightmare'

#382
post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe they can progressively make Pringles cans bigger so you can store your old cans inside your new cans.

This scenario inevitably ends up with the solar system inside a very big Pringles can

I think by that time we'll have figured out how to safely store or reuse Pringles cans. Then we can apply the same method to nuclear waste and all of our problems will be solved.

Re: Pringles tube tries to wake from 'recycling nightmare'

#383
post #378
post #374

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why not Al cans? I am sick and tired of this being the solution to every problem! Anytime there's a legacy business model in need of polishing, they plate it in Al and call it something new. Al doesn't work that way. There's many uses it excels at, but it's not a panacea. Nowadays, we have Al toasters, Al refrigerators, even Al watches. Yet no one stopped to ask if these were devices that needed Al. Hell, I even he…

Al = Aluminium

Woosh.

Re: Pringles tube tries to wake from 'recycling nightmare'

#384

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The tradition is to keep the packaging the same, but less content. The same packaging for less should be a crime with bankrupting fines.

It's illegal alright https://www.npr.org/2016/04/20/474935457/planet-money-class-... https://www.npr.org/sections/money/2016/04/15/474406842/epis...

Trick is to fluff up your product more.

Re: Pringles tube tries to wake from 'recycling nightmare'

#385
post #280

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Like in the UK, Tesco have just inexplicably switched from using cardboard egg containers to plastic ones. Is that my fault? If you keep buying them, yes. Tesco's beancounters (who are legion) are certainly going to keep track of the overall cost and revenue structure. Assuming the plastic containers cost less and are sold in equal amounts, they will push forward to roll out plastic over cardboard where they can. I…

Slightly OT: I may be a bit unfair picking on Tesco as it turns out the pulp used to make egg cartons has run out because of the demand for eggs from the covid home-baking upswing, they do plan to switch back. But only because the last time they pulled this stunt back in 2011 or so claiming it was eco-friendly to use "recyclable" plastic it blew up in their face (most of which isn't recycled) .

Fair enough. Now that you mention it, I remember how during the height of the lockdown cardboard pretty much ran out. People bought more stuff online (lots of cardboard in packaging), while there was no waste paper collection to fill the demand from the supply side.

There still isn't enough waste paper collection happening, really. The communal large containers are emptied at most once a week - and they have capacity for less than two days. People have a lot more cardboard packaging to get rid of, but with collection points hitting their capacity in 1/3 of the pre-covid time, there's a constant backlog to get through.

> last time they pulled this stunt back in 2011 or so

Wasn't aware of this historical detail. Thanks.

Re: Pringles tube tries to wake from 'recycling nightmare'

#386
post #173
post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Those are really good points. A good approach to incentivize everyone to do the right thing is to make it the least expensive option. That either requires some lucky tech breakthrough (super unlikely) or a strong government. A recyclability tax, where the producer pays a tax that corresponds to how much it will cost to recycle their product. Maybe collect data of how much of their product is actually recycled. That w…

One thing to consider is that plenty of packaged foods seal their bags with pure nitrogen to keep the humidity under control and eliminate oxygen ageing the food in storage. It's the same reason why a bag of chips can have some quite lengthy expiration date and still taste fresh when you open them but leave them sitting in your cupboards for a while and now they're noticeably less fresh. Having some sort of chip disp…

I was thinking of this when I said "some trick to keep chips crisp". I think you could have the dispenser nitrogen-seal it for you, or maybe there are more appropriate alternatives.

Re: Pringles tube tries to wake from 'recycling nightmare'

#387
post #6

I love Pringles tubes. We reuse them all over the place around the house. Never really thought of recycling them. Seems like a terrible waste to destroy a perfectly good container just to get a ~penny’s worth of materials out of it. This is one of the big problems I have with recycling. When I was a kid in school (throughout the 90’s), we learned the 3 R’s: reduce, reuse, recycle. Notice that recycle is last on the l…

They are more recyclable (reusable) now as the inside doesn’t have a sharp edge ring on the inside. Remember when I was a kid, reach your arm the full way in, you get scratched up pulling it out.

Re: Pringles tube tries to wake from 'recycling nightmare'

#388
post #6

I love Pringles tubes. We reuse them all over the place around the house. Never really thought of recycling them. Seems like a terrible waste to destroy a perfectly good container just to get a ~penny’s worth of materials out of it. This is one of the big problems I have with recycling. When I was a kid in school (throughout the 90’s), we learned the 3 R’s: reduce, reuse, recycle. Notice that recycle is last on the l…

The weird thing about plastic is that it is often too flimsy to easily reuse but will still survive for thousands of years in the environment.

I wonder if it would make sense to require these items to be more substantial and then make reuse financially unavoidable. So the only way to buy bottled water would be in a reusable container. You would either return it for a deposit or reuse it yourself.

Re: Pringles tube tries to wake from 'recycling nightmare'

#389
post #170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We should also ban single-use plastic. If costs need to go up, then let them go up. Consumers need to understand the costs of their consumption and we can’t destroy our planet so that corporations can be more profitable. The hitch is affordability for people with lower incomes. While it is easy to be critical about single serving beverages and over packages potato chips, the vast majority of goods found in most gro…

> While it is easy to be critical about single serving beverages and over packages potato chips, the vast majority of goods found in most grocery stores are packaged. I don't think anyone is suggesting that we need to do away with packaged foods entirely. the fundamental relationship between surface area and volume means we can improve things substantially just by using bigger containers. a plastic quart-sized contai…

That makes sense, and I was thinking along similar lines in terms of the cost of food, but it is also something that has to be driven by consumers. Government regulation may help, but it may not.

Getting ride of single serving packaging cannot really be done through the initiative of individual businesses. Consumers will simply switch to products providing single serving packages if that is what they desire. What has to be changed is the desire. You also have to consider that there are cases when small package sizes are legitimate, such as when someone uses very little of a product.

Regulation may not solve the problem either. Some people simply prefer single use packaging over cleaning and reusing smaller containers. Consider something like school lunches. When schools ask families to pack lunches using reusable containers, there is often a backlash and a few who simply don't understand the concept of reusable packaging. Quite often, things get sent in baggies or plastic wrap or inexpensive containers that are only used a handful of times before being tossed. This is ignoring the world of adult lunches, where adults often do the same or worse (e.g. ordering food in disposable packaging).

As simple as the solutions may sound, getting people to go along with it is a difficult problem.

Re: Pringles tube tries to wake from 'recycling nightmare'

#390
post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Paper can be used for some of these. E.g. sugar and flour are usually sold in plain paper (not even cardboard) packaging[1] in Germany and, from a cursory check, in some other European countries. It doesn't work for everything because it's not airtight. [1] https://www.amazon.de/S%C3%BCdzucker-Feinzucker-10er-Pack-10...

Of course... but to clarify, I was asking about reuse specifically. I can't think of anything you'd reuse the paper packaging used with sugar or flour for...

Right. Re-reading the thread that suddenly seems obvious and my comment a bit pointless.

To add something more substantive: Every large city here has a couple of "zero packaging" store that lets you bring your own containers for all kind of dry goods, like sibling posts mentioned. Sometimes you have to use containers you bought in the store (so they know the weight), often you just weigh the containers going in, so they can subtract the weight going out. I still have two containers with the weight written on them in a marker pen.

Note that these are tiny stores, and the prices are fairly high (obviously the produce tends to be organic and regionally produced, where possible). This is not yet a mass phenomenon. It might be getting there, though, since I've seen regular supermarkets with a small selection of dry goods available in that way. Or maybe it's just a fad.

In a similar vein, some supermarket chains let you bring reusable containers to the meat/deli counter: they weigh the product on a little slip of plastic (like they usually do already), but instead of packing everything in one or two additional bags of plastic, they use your tupperware. Employees are not allowed to touch your containers, though (food safety). I'm sure they love that. I've never seen it done in practice.

For some reason, there's often a big hubbub about the plastic bags you get at those counters as well as in the fruits & veggie aisles. For things like onions and bananas (come with their own packaging) or apples and peaches (gotta rinse them thoroughly anyway) I usually simply don't use any extra packaging (no, cashiers don't mind). And it seems a bit farcical to worry about an extremely thin plastic bag when you're buying meat. I guess every bit helps. At the same time, the waste created by those bags, which weigh so little you need specialist equipment to get an estimate, always seemed trivial compared to almost all the prepackaged stuff in the supermarket. It's probably because those plastic bags are particularly harmful if they reach rivers or the ocean, though I'm not sure if this is a widespread problem here.

When you bring your own cup to the coffee to go place, you usually get a 5-10% discount; this is true for most places, especially the chains who realize that this is cheap way to get good publicity and customer retention. While also not the norm, I think this is something that some people actually do.

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