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Wildlife in ‘catastrophic decline’ due to human destruction, scientists warn

bbc.com

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Re: Wildlife in ‘catastrophic decline’ due to human destruction, scientists warn

#131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's the direction things are heading. It's (past) time to start collecting genomes and marrow samples from as many critically endangered species as possible. Unextinction is a difficult problem, but without the necessary material, it's impossible. Sure, that's going to favor charismatic megafauna. But we like those, it's right in the name. And it's no substitute for building wildlife corridors, managing park lands…

Another pseudo-intellectual "solution" in the same realm as... let's go to Mars! This planet is made for us, we are made for it. We need a top down approach to limit damage to nature and make sustainability the "GDP" of tomorrow.

They aren’t mutually exclusive - believe it or not.

Re: Wildlife in ‘catastrophic decline’ due to human destruction, scientists warn

#132

50% of habitable land on earth is taken up by agriculture, 77% of which is used for meat & diary (including the crops grown for livestock to eat), which contributes only 18% to the global calorie supply because of the inefficiency of animal products: https://ourworldindata.org/agricultural-land-by-global-diets I wonder how much of an impact it would have to return the land used by meat & diary to nature (40 million k…

I think these figures are pretty misleading. First of all, they only look at calories, not protein. If you wanted to replace all the meat and dairy with equivalent protein substitutes you’d be looking at huge amounts of land for growing soybeans, peanuts, tree nuts. Replace all the milk with almond milk and you’re still dealing with huge water and land use for a product that has inferior protein and nutrients. Second…

Saying that someone's figures are misleading because the alternative is "huge" isn't a compelling argument. What's the amount? How much does it depend on the crop? What about rice and lentils?

Why almond milk? Why not another alternative? Why do we need milk at current quantities at all?

Re: Wildlife in ‘catastrophic decline’ due to human destruction, scientists warn

#134

50% of habitable land on earth is taken up by agriculture, 77% of which is used for meat & diary (including the crops grown for livestock to eat), which contributes only 18% to the global calorie supply because of the inefficiency of animal products: https://ourworldindata.org/agricultural-land-by-global-diets I wonder how much of an impact it would have to return the land used by meat & diary to nature (40 million k…

I think these figures are pretty misleading. First of all, they only look at calories, not protein. If you wanted to replace all the meat and dairy with equivalent protein substitutes you’d be looking at huge amounts of land for growing soybeans, peanuts, tree nuts. Replace all the milk with almond milk and you’re still dealing with huge water and land use for a product that has inferior protein and nutrients. Second…

> I think these figures are pretty misleading. First of all, they only look at calories, not protein.

See the link - 63% of the global protein supply already comes from crops while crops only make up 23% of agriculture land so meat isn't as efficient a source anyway: https://ourworldindata.org/agricultural-land-by-global-diets

> If you wanted to replace all the meat and dairy with equivalent protein substitutes you’d be looking at huge amounts of land for growing soybeans, peanuts, tree nuts

Most livestock aren't eating grass though, they're eating crops like soy because soy is full of protein (and that land use is included in the 40 million km^2 figure).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soybean "Around 80% of the global soybean crop is used to feed livestock.[46] Soya imports represent 47% of Europe’s deforestation footprint"

> Replace all the milk with almond milk

Or rice milk, oat milk, or soy milk. When cows are eating soybeans to produce milk right now, soy milk is always going to be more efficient.

Plant based milks are all significantly more efficient than diary milk for emissions, land and water use too: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-46654042

Also, the focus on protein is just a distraction. It's not difficult to get protein from plants alone and most Americans eat too much protein already:

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/07/28/well/eat/how-much-protein... "Most American adults eat about 100 grams of protein per day, or roughly twice the recommended amount."

> Good luck growing soybeans on a bunch of jagged cliffs.

If we were only farming grass fed cows on jagged cliffs, it would be less of a problem compared to mass deforestation to grow soybeans to feed to cows in intensive farms. The latter is the reality right now for everyone to have access to cheap meat but it's not sustainable.

Re: Wildlife in ‘catastrophic decline’ due to human destruction, scientists warn

#135
post #39
post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Second reply: Impact = Population * Affluence * Technology. The problem is not rising population, it's rising affluence and inert technology. As people earn more, they consume more in general, and more of environmentally harmful products like meat, cars, and plane trips in particular. Meanwhile we're not improving core technologies quickly enough. We make buildings using Portland cement. Cement making is responsible…

> As people earn more, they consume more in general, and more of environmentally harmful products like meat, cars, and plane trips in particular. That is one part of the problem. But, as we have seen, there is alternatives. Because the pandemic, more people is working from home, playing video games instead of traveling or even learning new skills. I love to travel, but also to play games or read books. A change of cu…

I’m not sure the travel industry is the worst perpetrator here. But regardless, asking people to give up their traveling is simply too much. I would much rather look at commuting and the shipping industry. As well as family/friendly visits which could be done using green on-ground mass transports.

Re: Wildlife in ‘catastrophic decline’ due to human destruction, scientists warn

#136
post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's nothing wrong with population density. We'd do better to have people living in dense city centers instead of sprawled out into every corner of the wilderness.

COVID-19 begs to differ

Study: Urban Density Not Linked to Higher Coronavirus Infection Rates—and Is Linked to Lower COVID-19 Death Rates

https://www.jhsph.edu/news/news-releases/2020/urban-density-...

Re: Wildlife in ‘catastrophic decline’ due to human destruction, scientists warn

#137

I think the future is very grim for biodiversity. Even if we stopped destroying habitats tomorrow, many larger animals are already living in small, isolated pockets surrounded by roads, farms, and industry. Meanwhile, plants and smaller animals face intense competition from invasive species - often brought in by accident thanks to the constant flow of goods around the globe. We're probably headed for a pretty homogen…

Fragile species will continue to be in decline. Long term, large species will remain in protected environments like national parks. The idea that humans are incapable of protecting larger species is belied by a visit to Yellowstone. Our living environments create opportunities for well-adapted species to flourish. This will certainly shift the makeup of our planet's biodiversity. You mention all of this in passing, b…

The United States went through a roughly 100 year period or so where conservation efforts were... er, not terribly great. It took about 100 years for humans to shoot an incredibly large passenger pigeon population into extinction, and bison which once numbered millions on the plains was reduced to mere hundreds. Fortunately, in the mid 19th century to early 20th century in particular, people began to notice and started protecting areas. Thank goodness for that, but a large portion of ecosystems did get wiped out (to give one example, roughly 95% of the California redwood forests).

Megafauna do get most of the attention, but a lot of the hidden economic / scientific benefits of maintaining biodiversity I think comes from smaller parts of the ecosystem -- for instance, drug discovery. Or, the widely used polymerase chain reaction (PCR) technique for copying DNA... which for all we know is a technique that might not even exist today had preservationists not had the foresight to preserve the Lower Geyser Basin of Yellowstone National Park, where the crucial enzymes for this technique were found.

Re: Wildlife in ‘catastrophic decline’ due to human destruction, scientists warn

#138
post #49
post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not sure I believe the 20 miles thing unless you could count an old road that hasn't been used in 100 years as "developed". There are massive swaths of land in the lower 48 that are pretty much untouched beyond a few footpaths that are rarely used.

Well, go right ahead and name any place that is, say, fifty miles from a road.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2018/02/20/using...

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-42104894

The best one can do is 21 miles from a road - in Yellowstone

Re: Wildlife in ‘catastrophic decline’ due to human destruction, scientists warn

#139

50% of habitable land on earth is taken up by agriculture, 77% of which is used for meat & diary (including the crops grown for livestock to eat), which contributes only 18% to the global calorie supply because of the inefficiency of animal products: https://ourworldindata.org/agricultural-land-by-global-diets I wonder how much of an impact it would have to return the land used by meat & diary to nature (40 million k…

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Re: Wildlife in ‘catastrophic decline’ due to human destruction, scientists warn

#140

50% of habitable land on earth is taken up by agriculture, 77% of which is used for meat & diary (including the crops grown for livestock to eat), which contributes only 18% to the global calorie supply because of the inefficiency of animal products: https://ourworldindata.org/agricultural-land-by-global-diets I wonder how much of an impact it would have to return the land used by meat & diary to nature (40 million k…

I think these figures are pretty misleading. First of all, they only look at calories, not protein. If you wanted to replace all the meat and dairy with equivalent protein substitutes you’d be looking at huge amounts of land for growing soybeans, peanuts, tree nuts. Replace all the milk with almond milk and you’re still dealing with huge water and land use for a product that has inferior protein and nutrients. Second…

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