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Apple: Apps should not require users to opt into tracking to access content

developer.apple.com

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Re: Apple: Apps should not require users to opt into tracking to access content

#131

Post by systemvoltage »

dathinab wrote: post #25

I do not think Apple should have the power to do such decisions. I do not like tracking at all. But I think this is something which needs to be handled by governments (laws/regulations) not by apple forcing their opinion about what is right onto everyone else by abusing their marked positions. In this case it might be beneficial for the users. In others cases it was not beneficial for the users at all but only for ap…

I completely disagree. I want Apple to have complete control over my device because the alternatives are absolutely horrifying - ransomeware attacks, blackmailing to get my photos back, contact list sold off in an auction, etc.

This is not a linux PC. Average joes and jills are not avid users with understanding of security. Think billions of users, not just HN community of 30k developers.

Re: Apple: Apps should not require users to opt into tracking to access content

#132

Post by dylan-m »

systemvoltage wrote: post #130
dayjobpork wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You do realise Apple could still do this in their app store AND allow 3rd party app stores?

That's a terrifying idea. Horrifying. I absolutely detest this idea of third party app stores. Please tell me why this is a good idea when literally your entire life and its contents are contained in this palm sized device. Do you really want sideloading of apps that asks average joes for ransomware? We already have another sandbox - browsers. And you're seeing problems with extensions, popups, .dmg downloads and .ex…

> We already have another sandbox - browsers. And you're seeing problems with extensions, popups, .dmg downloads and .exe virus scans, etc. So much so that browsers are constantly fighting against attacks for 20 years.

They are, and, if you look around, they're winning: billions of people use Windows, MacOS and desktop Linux, safely, to do all manner of things. Billions of people use the web, which involves all kinds of code from all kinds of places - none of which is held hostage by a single absurdly valuable corporation - and, judging by the continuing success of that platform, I would say it's doing pretty well.

You know what's terrifying? This argument is terrifying. So, you brought up the web … assuming iOS continues to be what it is, and eventually people just stop bothering to make websites: is that okay? Is that what we want?

Re: Apple: Apps should not require users to opt into tracking to access content

#133

Post by zoredache »

slipheen wrote: post #26
dathinab wrote: post #25

I do not think Apple should have the power to do such decisions. I do not like tracking at all. But I think this is something which needs to be handled by governments (laws/regulations) not by apple forcing their opinion about what is right onto everyone else by abusing their marked positions. In this case it might be beneficial for the users. In others cases it was not beneficial for the users at all but only for ap…

Governments ought to be the place for this level of regulation, absolutely - But right now, governments aren't regulating. In the mean time, I'm glad Apple is. If Apple wasn't doing this, no one would be.

Never heard of regulatory capture?

If the government regulates something, that very often means that the incumbents will donate/bribe officials to pass regulations that favor the mega corps.

Getting government regulations that actually favors the consumers is somewhere between difficult and impossible.

Re: Apple: Apps should not require users to opt into tracking to access content

#134

Post by fulafel »

threeseed wrote: post #116
dayjobpork wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You do realise Apple could still do this in their app store AND allow 3rd party app stores?

But 3rd party app stores just mean a race to the bottom. The app store with the least oversight and cheapest prices would be the winner. Policies like this are good for users but bad for apps and by extension app stores.

Doesn't seem to happen on Android.

Re: Apple: Apps should not require users to opt into tracking to access content

#135

Post by deadmutex »

derefr wrote: post #55
kevinventullo wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That seems like a pretty big loophole if applied. Taken to the logical extreme, one could make an app that streams raw user inputs to a server and streams back a video output and be allowed to do whatever they like (albeit with horrendous performance).

Apple already declared a policy against game-streaming service apps; presumably specifically to avoid this loophole where the ads, purchases, etc. are happening “remotely” and so Apple can’t get a cut of them. Presumably, if anyone tried to build a service for “streaming” non-game apps, that wouldn’t be allowed on the App Store either.

> Apple already declared a policy against game-streaming service apps.

I thought they did just the opposite?

4.9: Streaming games Streaming games are permitted so long as they adhere to all guidelines — for example, each game update must be submitted for review, developers must provide appropriate metadata for search, games must use in-app purchase to unlock features or functionality, etc. Of course, there is always the open Internet and web browser apps to reach all users outside of the App Store.

Re: Apple: Apps should not require users to opt into tracking to access content

#136

Post by systemvoltage »

dylan-m wrote: post #132
systemvoltage wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a terrifying idea. Horrifying. I absolutely detest this idea of third party app stores. Please tell me why this is a good idea when literally your entire life and its contents are contained in this palm sized device. Do you really want sideloading of apps that asks average joes for ransomware? We already have another sandbox - browsers. And you're seeing problems with extensions, popups, .dmg downloads and .ex…

> We already have another sandbox - browsers. And you're seeing problems with extensions, popups, .dmg downloads and .exe virus scans, etc. So much so that browsers are constantly fighting against attacks for 20 years. They are, and, if you look around, they're winning: billions of people use Windows, MacOS and desktop Linux, safely, to do all manner of things. Billions of people use the web, which involves all kinds…

I actually want a phone with absolutely no app store. Just browser is fine. Given the amount of information it holds, adding any kind of apps that allow system wide access is horrifying to me. Since we don't have such phones, the next best thing is a store run by a company that can have security staff, highly paid security engineers and a whole bunch of people trying to make it secure than some reddit group that wants to distribute apps to billions of people. For that, as I said, just use a browser.

Re: Apple: Apps should not require users to opt into tracking to access content

#137

Post by nodamage »

lostgame wrote: post #127
DoofusOfDeath wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I find that policy entirely acceptable, for the same reasons I think shrink-wrap EULAs should be illegal. This makes me curious about Apple and iOS / OS X. Does Apple try to require that the user accepts an EULA for the OS after buying Apple hardware?

IIRC the existence of such an EULA includes a clause which was the reason behind Apple's successful court case against a company who was selling pre assembled and configured Hackintosh boxes. (Does anyone remember what the name of the company was? It was like 2007-9 or something) IMHO that EULA's main purpose atm is to tell you that you can only install MacOS on, and I quote, an 'Apple-branded computer'. This led to…

You are correct, the case was Apple v. Psystar: https://casetext.com/case/apple-2

Of particular note in that case is the court ruled that Apple's alleged "monopoly" over the market of "Mac OS-capable computers" was not a valid antitrust market because users knowingly agreed to the EULA restriction limiting installation of Mac OS to Apple computers when they initially purchased Mac OS.

I expect this very same issue will come up in Epic's case as well with regard to Apple's alleged "monopoly" over iOS app distribution.

Re: Apple: Apps should not require users to opt into tracking to access content

#138

Post by polyomino »

NovemberWhiskey wrote: post #79
cblconfederate wrote: post #12

Thats a good thing. Can Apple guarantee that they themselves are not tracking their users' app preferences/behaviour either?

There's a fairly simple cui bono aspect to this. Apple makes money by selling products to their users or taking a cut of the users' purchases in their marketplace. Facebook and Google, on the other hand, make most of their money by selling micro-segmented access to their user base to third parties. Which of these two kinds of companies stands to benefit from harvesting more data about their users whenever possible?

Facebook and Google are valuable because they have this data and their customers don't. If the data is harder to come by, Facebook and Google just win out over smaller data collectors.

Re: Apple: Apps should not require users to opt into tracking to access content

#139

Post by flukus »

ffpip wrote: post #10

Such things are never going to come to Android are they? Every preinstalled app abuses every permission possible

With android the tracking is baked into the OS, I'd worry about that before worrying about apps with less permissions.

Re: Apple: Apps should not require users to opt into tracking to access content

#140

Post by deadmutex »

deadmutex wrote: post #135
derefr wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apple already declared a policy against game-streaming service apps; presumably specifically to avoid this loophole where the ads, purchases, etc. are happening “remotely” and so Apple can’t get a cut of them. Presumably, if anyone tried to build a service for “streaming” non-game apps, that wouldn’t be allowed on the App Store either.

> Apple already declared a policy against game-streaming service apps. I thought they did just the opposite? 4.9: Streaming games Streaming games are permitted so long as they adhere to all guidelines — for example, each game update must be submitted for review, developers must provide appropriate metadata for search, games must use in-app purchase to unlock features or functionality, etc. Of course, there is always…

Although, they seem pretty heavily biased towards Apple: https://www.androidpolice.com/2020/09/11/apple-establishes-r...
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