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Apple countersues Epic, seeks punitive damages

wsj.com

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Re: Apple countersues Epic, seeks punitive damages

#581

Post by pjmlp »

simion314 wrote: post #515
pjmlp wrote: post #478

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People can get Internet via other means, and there are plenty of ways to do phone calls.

So you see this smartphones as just different kind of consoles. Maybe you just play games on them but reality is more diverse. For example in real world you are forced to own a smartphone by work or society , like parking,banking, different activities are this days setup for phone users and if you don't own one you are forced to do a lot of extra work. A few years ago some money exchanges were abusing the users by ha…

Parking, there are machines to get the tickets, and most places also support SMS or mobile Web apps, no need for an iPhone specifically.

Banking, one can walk to the bank office, use any phone model to call them, use the mobile Web site no need for an iPhone specifically.

Alone the fact that iPhone only matters to 22% of the world population pretty much validates the fact that is isn't water.

Re: Apple countersues Epic, seeks punitive damages

#582

Post by pjmlp »

ac29 wrote: post #506
pjmlp wrote: post #430

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Consumers get their apps, there is no undermining taking place. Maybe I should complain that Sony abuses the PS4 market so I can't run Switch titles on the PS4.

Consumers get their apps for ~40% higher prices than if developers could offer them directly (granted, payment processing isnt free anywhere, but Apple charges an order of magnitude more than the alternatives).

The alternatives were charging up to 80% when iPhone made its appearance on the market.

If anything the iPhone was responsible for driving everyone down, as developers abandoned J2ME, Brew, Symbian, Blackberry into iOS.

Re: Apple countersues Epic, seeks punitive damages

#583

Post by pjmlp »

simion314 wrote: post #518
pjmlp wrote: post #483

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, because that is how game consoles have been doing for 40 years now. I also don't get to choose what goes into my cable tv box software although it runs some strange Linux distribution, and I really don't care.

Your arguments are ilogical, try thinking more before commenting, is like saying "We could shit behind our homes since generations but the new king is demanding we build toilets and also to wash our hands" - if something was legal in the past for millennia does not mean it should not change. Consider that there will be a judge and a trial and you can't claim that someone else started it , you need to show the judge t…

I am looking forward for the judge to validate Apple's decision.

People in Bielorussia are being hurt.

Apple is not hurting anyone, beside a couple of people that has been giving money to Apple because they do UNIX, instead of supporting Linux OEMs, and now complain that Apple isn't the hippie they came to expect.

Re: Apple countersues Epic, seeks punitive damages

#584

Post by kbenson »

valuearb wrote: post #570
kbenson wrote: post #547

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The vast majority of phones people had at the time were not smartphones. The original iPhone was more "super impressive dumbphone" than smartphone, because it only had what it came with. Unless you were using Symbian, Blackberry, or a Windows Phone (which most people weren't), you had some dumb phone that had a crappy browser that couldn't render well, and whatever shipped on the phone. Maybe some extra ringtones you…

You can understand how iPhone security and safety helped sell it, even though it was (inaccurately as we later found our) viewed as less secure than Blackberry. People bought iPhones because they trusted it was secure, and chose it over Blackberry because of features and UX. And they kept buying it because it was secure, had the release of the App Store opened the platform to a horde of malware, we would be saying re…

I'll totally concede all of this. And it bolsters my actual point, which is that:

>>>>> Since day one security and safety have been the most important feature for iPhone, and the biggest reason consumers select it.

Is incorrect, because safety and security were not the major selling points. The person who said that is incorrect.

Nowhere am I saying that the iPhone was unsafe or insecure, but that it definitely wasn't seem as a "more secure" option and it definitely wasn't the "most important feature" and "biggest reason consumers selected it" from "day one".

This comment of your and the prior ones make it pretty obvious you understand this, so I'm not sure what you're trying to argue anymore. Are iPhones often chosen now for for safety and security? Yes, although I still wouldn't say it's the most important feature or the biggest reason people choose it. It definitely wasn't that when it first launched though.

Re: Apple countersues Epic, seeks punitive damages

#585

Post by yazaddaruvala »

stale2002 wrote: post #578
yazaddaruvala wrote: post #577

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If then yes. But it seems unlikely and my preference is to live in a world where Apple continues to curate the AppStore on my behalf. I hope Apple doesn’t need to remove the AppStore entirely. But that would definitely be better than the alternatives of allowing sideloading.

> If then yes. This is the entire point of the lawsuit and the debate.... That Apple's action were anti-competitive. You haven't actually given any reason as for why thats not true. > where Apple continues to curate the AppStore on my behalf. They will still be able to do that. They simple won't be allowed to make it extremely difficult for alternative app stores to be installed on the iPhone, if another user chooses…

> If you don't want to install competing app stores, then don't install them.

This is my position on this matter: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24287042

Meanwhile, we clearly disagree. It’ll be more productive for us to wait for the results of the lawsuit.

Best of luck to you and Epic’s position, but I truly hope the court isn’t misled by the short term “needs” of some iOS developers at the expense of the long term needs of Apple’s customers.

Re: Apple countersues Epic, seeks punitive damages

#586

Post by stale2002 »

yazaddaruvala wrote: post #585
stale2002 wrote: post #578

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If then yes. This is the entire point of the lawsuit and the debate.... That Apple's action were anti-competitive. You haven't actually given any reason as for why thats not true. > where Apple continues to curate the AppStore on my behalf. They will still be able to do that. They simple won't be allowed to make it extremely difficult for alternative app stores to be installed on the iPhone, if another user chooses…

> If you don't want to install competing app stores, then don't install them. This is my position on this matter: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24287042 Meanwhile, we clearly disagree. It’ll be more productive for us to wait for the results of the lawsuit. Best of luck to you and Epic’s position, but I truly hope the court isn’t misled by the short term “needs” of some iOS developers at the expense of the long…

You are trying to make the argument, that Epic making a voluntary transaction with me, is somehow an infridgement on you, who is an unrelated, 3rd party.

Thats is an absolutely ridiculous claim to make.

The fact that I would be allowed to easily install apps on my phone, that I paid for, is a ridiculous claim that this is somehow taking away your choice.

No. That is dumb. It is my phone. Not yours. Don't install apps that you don't like, if you don't want them. But me installing them on my phone, does not infringe on your rights.

> of the long term needs of Apple’s customers.

Those customers don't have to install anything that they don't want to install on the phones that they own. Easy. Me, as a 3rd party, being allowed to modify the phone that I own 100% is not related to that.

> It’ll be more productive for us to wait for the results of the lawsuit.

You did not make a single argument against the idea that Apple has significant market power.

Because you did not make a single argument against that, I am going to assume that you agree that Apple has significant market power, and has used it to harm competition. (Which would mean that Apple's actions are illegal)

Re: Apple countersues Epic, seeks punitive damages

#587

Post by kbenson »

valuearb wrote: post #565
kbenson wrote: post #491

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The fact you note events after the initial launch are exactly why it's ridiculous to say it's why people chose it for those reasons "from day one".

How many people would have stopped buying iPhone due to that epic run of malware and viruses that never happened? Why does Apple spend so much on safety and security if it doesn’t sell iPhones?

> How many people would have stopped buying iPhone due to that epic run of malware and viruses that never happened?

I'm not saying make it super easy. I would be perfectly happy with a situation where it's hard to install a separate store (on Android to install any app not from the shipped with stores you specifically have to go to settings and enable untrusted apps. But there's a huge difference between "hard" and "legally impossible".

> Why does Apple spend so much on safety and security if it doesn’t sell iPhones?

Because it lets them completely control the platform, so they don't have to worry nearly as much about competition? The fact that Epic can't just install another store and get around Apple's 30% cut is a huge incentive to spend money on "safety and security", because the way they've chosen to achieve those goals is "we control it all, you control nothing, and we'll keep you safe". That's very convenient for them.

Re: Apple countersues Epic, seeks punitive damages

#588

Post by valuearb »

kbenson wrote: post #587
valuearb wrote: post #565

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How many people would have stopped buying iPhone due to that epic run of malware and viruses that never happened? Why does Apple spend so much on safety and security if it doesn’t sell iPhones?

> How many people would have stopped buying iPhone due to that epic run of malware and viruses that never happened? I'm not saying make it super easy. I would be perfectly happy with a situation where it's hard to install a separate store (on Android to install any app not from the shipped with stores you specifically have to go to settings and enable untrusted apps. But there's a huge difference between "hard" and "…

The net profits from that 30% is a trivial amount compared to their iPhone/iPad profits.

Yes they are worried about competition, Android. Epic isn’t competition. Without the walled garden, the iPhone loses a huge differentiator between it and Android, a and one of their developers and customers most valued features.

Re: Apple countersues Epic, seeks punitive damages

#589

Post by simion314 »

pjmlp wrote: post #583
simion314 wrote: post #518

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your arguments are ilogical, try thinking more before commenting, is like saying "We could shit behind our homes since generations but the new king is demanding we build toilets and also to wash our hands" - if something was legal in the past for millennia does not mean it should not change. Consider that there will be a judge and a trial and you can't claim that someone else started it , you need to show the judge t…

I am looking forward for the judge to validate Apple's decision. People in Bielorussia are being hurt. Apple is not hurting anyone, beside a couple of people that has been giving money to Apple because they do UNIX, instead of supporting Linux OEMs, and now complain that Apple isn't the hippie they came to expect.

>I am looking forward for the judge to validate Apple's decision.

I will be OK if it is cleared what rights you have on your device, can Apple update the TOS whenever they want? are those pages of TOS you agree when you buy a device enforceable? What is the limit Apple can censor information that user receive from third parties.

Re: Apple countersues Epic, seeks punitive damages

#590

Post by yazaddaruvala »

stale2002 wrote: post #586
yazaddaruvala wrote: post #585

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you don't want to install competing app stores, then don't install them. This is my position on this matter: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24287042 Meanwhile, we clearly disagree. It’ll be more productive for us to wait for the results of the lawsuit. Best of luck to you and Epic’s position, but I truly hope the court isn’t misled by the short term “needs” of some iOS developers at the expense of the long…

You are trying to make the argument, that Epic making a voluntary transaction with me, is somehow an infridgement on you, who is an unrelated, 3rd party. Thats is an absolutely ridiculous claim to make. The fact that I would be allowed to easily install apps on my phone, that I paid for, is a ridiculous claim that this is somehow taking away your choice. No. That is dumb. It is my phone. Not yours. Don't install apps…

I encourage you to improve your discourse, but I’ll participate anyways.

My argument is that Apple has significant market power, on iOS devices. There is no denying that. In fact it is a feature for me as a customer to pool my buying power into a “customer’s union” of sorts.

I also agree that Apple has built a large barrier to entry, i.e. it has built trust with customers like me. I truly believe you’ve never tried both Android and iOS in earnest, or else you’d feel similarly.

However, Apple has no monopoly on the devices market. I play Fortnite on my PS4 and always have.

Additionally, Apple has overall increased competition rather than hamper it. That said, I would like to see Apple compensate applications when it replaces poorer quality apps with better in-house versions, even though it doesn’t need to.

It would be a sincere set back for the entire economy if Apple was forced to sideload applications on iOS.

That said, as I have previously agreed: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24419752

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