Apple Disabling 'Sign in with Apple' for Epic Games on September 11 • Hacker News Board

Re: Apple Disabling 'Sign in with Apple' for Epic Games on September 11

#481

Post by mywittyname » Thu, Sep 10, 2020, 2:02 AM UTC

DonaldPShimoda wrote: post #409

wayneftw wrote: post #263

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They are relatively smaller and if they win this fight, all the little guys that are rooting for them will win as well. Here's a visualization so you can see how much smaller a billion is than a trillion - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xAoK38U8gDU

I mean, I understand that. My issue is that it feels like Epic is being dishonest. Their motives are clearly self-interested: they want the ability to run their own Epic Store so they can secure more profits than going through Apple. So when they try to act like they're the little guy fighting for what's in people's best interests — that leaves a sour taste in my mouth, regardless of whether the outcome is for the be…

Everyone's motives in a civil suit is self-interest.

Re: Apple Disabling 'Sign in with Apple' for Epic Games on September 11

#482

Post by donmcronald » Thu, Sep 10, 2020, 2:09 AM UTC

labcomputer wrote: post #393

danShumway wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Epic isn't fighting for the little guy, they wanted their own store That's the point. This is also what the little guys want. Epic isn't fighting for the little guy, but they are fighting for terms that are mutually beneficial for both Epic and the little guy. For the devs who support Epic in the lawsuit, it's never directly been about the 30% cut. It's about this article, right here -- that Apple requires you to s…

> I understand why people disagree with me Respectfully, it feels like you don't. For example: > I understand why people think that the average consumer might be too stupid to actually own their own hardware and make their own decisions. It's not about stupidity. I like the fact that my 94-year-old grandmother (who isn't stupid, by the way) doesn't have to worry about accidentally downloading malware from the App Sto…

I wonder if part of that is you telling your grandmother "this device is safe and you can do anything you want." My whole family uses Windows and Android and no one has any problems. I wonder how many companies have data mined your grandma's contacts. She probably clicks yes on every permission prompt because she thinks the device is "safe".

> Speaking mutually-beneficial: Sign-in with Apple, a "gimped" browser, developer restrictions, forcing IAP to go through Apple. Yes, those all all very clearly benefit Apple. But they also benefit users.

How does something like devaluing PWAs in the browser benefit me? How is +30% on something as simple as a payment request benefitting me? Consolidating your logins behind Sign-in with Apple has risks too. If you end up being an outlier and getting banned by Apple you're going to have a bad time.

> Genuine question: Apple makes no secret of the fact that they exert a large degree of control over the ecosystem, and they have a generous return policy. If you don't hate Apple, why don't you just buy an Android device and allow those of us who like iOS the way it is to live in peace? Why are you forcing your desires on us?

Because an app that can't get onto or can't be successful on the app store isn't going to get built, so Apples' restrictions bleed over to Android users both as apps that don't get built and as apps that are built to have feature parity between mobile platforms. You'll also have companies targeting average revenue per user, so the +30% charged by closed app stores means I'm subsidizing those users if I sign up via the website.

Re: Apple Disabling 'Sign in with Apple' for Epic Games on September 11

#483

Post by DennisAleynikov » Thu, Sep 10, 2020, 2:11 AM UTC

coldtea wrote: post #389

DennisAleynikov wrote: post #335

Earlier quoted context omitted.

there are a few nerds here and there that actually prefer the weird Unix/BSD that Mac OS X is based on but theres no way Linus Torvalds is using the normie focused MacOS Big Sur and the current environment Apple used to support freedom in programming and use of the computer. That has not been the case anytime recently, they've taken the prison system of iOS and slowly implemented it on 'macOS'

> there are a few nerds here and there that actually prefer the weird Unix/BSD that Mac OS X is based on macOS as well as Apple hardware is not just used by "a few nerds here and there". It's used by a very good chunk of devs in any conference (be it Apple, Rails, JS, Python, Data science, whatever), and by a majority of speakers in said conferences (so tons of top tier "nerds" - your words). > there are a few nerds…

whoa there by normies I meant people outside of the hackernews crowd, and while I agree with Linus on Apple's hardware being way sturdier back in the day this was a fleeting era for apple.

He does run linux on the macbook so my point was just that current apple is not something he stands by nor would buy for status/reliability reasons as Thinkpads and many other durable machines now exist.

The new macOS Big Sur is very importantly focused on "the average intellect user" that ends up on iOS and iPad and trying to have the same system of permission popups and touch friendly UI's as well as restrictions to application runtimes going as extreme as break many devtools.

While there will be fixes one day for all this and likely a second golden age for apple, unless you are stuck video editing with final cut and your workflow does not allow you to change OS theres few things left for the "era of pro users that got mac for work"

I'm still likely to buy the arm macs they should be releasing here soon cuz I do want to be on the front lines of the demise of Intel and I already have a Surface Pro X but the market of american programmers with macbooks is fading and fast, hopefully for good, as iOS development continues to move away from being MacOS exclusive.

Re: Apple Disabling 'Sign in with Apple' for Epic Games on September 11

#484

Post by pfranz » Thu, Sep 10, 2020, 2:14 AM UTC

thekyle wrote: post #395

jakebasile wrote: post #379

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's not how it would work though. You'd see things similar to what Epic themselves did on Android originally, where they required people who wanted to play Fortnite to download the APK directly from Epic, which of course led to hundreds of fake and infected apps on the net, harming users.

So which is better: having no Fortnite at all or having no Fortnite in the App Store with the option to sideload. If you strictly want to stay in the App Store then nothing changes for you and the situation is neither worse nor better. If you just want to play Fortnite on your iPhone and don't care about the App Store then the latter option is a better.

> So which is better: having no Fortnite at all or having no Fortnite in the App Store with the option to sideload

It's too simplistic and disingenuous to present it that way. Last month there was Fornite in the App Store and no option to sideload.

Right now I count 34 Adobe apps in the Apple's phone App Store. I'm very confident if this precedent is set Adobe will have their own app store and very likely will not have anything but a placeholder in Apple's App Store.

Re: Apple Disabling 'Sign in with Apple' for Epic Games on September 11

#485

Post by danShumway » Thu, Sep 10, 2020, 2:17 AM UTC

CharlesW wrote: post #194

danShumway wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Hey got what they wanted, as did Apple. That's correct, they were not big enough to take on Apple and win. They bent to Apple's demands and figured out a solution that Apple wanted. In the process they saved their own company but had zero impact on the overall ecosystem. I think my original point stands. If user-freedom advocates want a "champion" that can actually change the ecosystem, it's going to need to be som…

> That's correct, they were not big enough to take on Apple and win. I think reasonable people can disagree on the meaning of "win" in this case. From my POV, Hey won because (1) they were handsomely rewarded with free national news coverage for Raging Against the Fruit at the cost of having to make very minor and unsurprising changes to their app, and (2) they forced Apple to make changes to their app review process…

> they forced Apple to make changes to their app review process.

It's worth keeping Hey's response to those changes in mind[0]:

> "What they've given out is actually so far very little. Apple has said that you can appeal to Apple if you want Apple to investigate Apple. OK, maybe there's something there, but it hinges on what those verdicts are going to be"

> "We did not want a fight with Apple whatsoever," Hanssen said. "We just need to get on the iPhone, it's the dominant platform for these kinds of services."

I guess I agree; different people have different definitions of "win", and I'm not going to fight with you if that fits your definition. I am going to say that even if this is a win, Hey isn't pushing the envelope or moving Apple in any significant direction.

This is not an efficient or reasonable way for us to change how Apple approaches device ownership, and it's not clear to me how a company like Hey can force Apple to make the jump from "we'll be slightly nicer about approving apps" to "consumers will own the devices they buy and have the option to control the code that runs on them."

Call this a victory if you want, but we need bigger victories than this.

> WordPress is another example of a small company who "won"

Sure, they got an apology from Apple while Apple was being sued by a billion dollar company over their app store policies and worried about looking bad for that lawsuit.

But it's kind of the same situation as above. I guess you can call it a win, but forgive me for not being too excited about an outcome where Apple says 'sorry that you misunderstood us' to one company. I don't think that's going to have a significant impact on user's ability to own and control their own devices.

[0]:https://www.cnbc.com/2020/06/23/apple-app-store-policy-chang...

Re: Apple Disabling 'Sign in with Apple' for Epic Games on September 11

#486

Post by t-writescode » Thu, Sep 10, 2020, 2:17 AM UTC

Razengan wrote: post #378

fxtentacle wrote: post #205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can't help but think that the whole thing is playing out exactly like Epic had hoped. After Apple kicked Fortnite from the iOS store, there was an outcry of people who had previously spent money on it through Apple's in-app purchases and now wanted a refund. Some of those users switched to playing Fortnite on a laptop or Android phone instead, but of course they were still using Sign in with Apple if they had origi…

> I can't help but think that the whole thing is playing out exactly like Epic had hoped. It seems to be hurting them more than Apple: Epic Games Asks Court to Allow Fortnite Back on the App Store: https://www.macrumors.com/2020/09/05/epic-injuction-fortnite... > Meanwhile, Epic now has a very good reason to collect a working email address from every past iOS customer One of the biggest reason I love using Sign-In Wi…

Do you remember the time when Google mass-banned people’s Google accounts for participating in a chat event with the YouTuber Markiplier?

When you restrict your logins to a single company’s OAuth, you’re giving that company incredible power over you- it’s generally not a good thing, except in, perhaps, corporate scenarios where revoking that power unilaterally is a good thing.

Re: Apple Disabling 'Sign in with Apple' for Epic Games on September 11

#487

Post by t-writescode » Thu, Sep 10, 2020, 2:18 AM UTC

strbean wrote: post #438

mthoms wrote: post #265

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you sure the downvotes weren't due to childish language ("Apple fanbois")? Because that's certainly why you're getting downvoted now.

> Because that's certainly why you're getting downvoted now. What terminology would you prefer? Blind zealots? I'm pretty sure I would receive those downvotes regardless, as they always appear for any comment critical of .

Proper spelling is desired.

“Fanboys”, not “fanbois”.

Re: Apple Disabling 'Sign in with Apple' for Epic Games on September 11

#488

Post by hndamien » Thu, Sep 10, 2020, 2:20 AM UTC

fakedang wrote: post #419

ffhhj wrote: post #337

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Epic should take advantage of this momentum and launch their own gaming device, with Google/Apple stores saturated as they are, gamedevs like me will welcome it.

So another Stadia?

Do it with Nvidia.

Re: Apple Disabling 'Sign in with Apple' for Epic Games on September 11

#489

Post by t-writescode » Thu, Sep 10, 2020, 2:20 AM UTC

411111111111111 wrote: post #245

strbean wrote: post #221

I got drive-by downvotes from Apple fanbois for saying this in a previous thread, but I think this could actually have a significant impact on the iOS user base in the long term. I'd wager that a significant portion of iOS's user acquisition funnel is children for whom Fortnite is a requirement. All those kids will be throwing tantrums until their parents get them an Android device.

I seriously doubt that. Apple hardware has always been more about being a status symbol then utility. To the average Apple user it's just not cool enough if it isn't availble on Apple hardware. Even looking back I'm still surprised how effectively Apple polarized people into fans vs haters after steve jobs rejoined back then...

The only reason I use an iPhone is privacy concerns. I’m sure there are many like me.

Frankly, with Apple’s behavior lately, it’s becoming a bit of a hard sell. Anticompetitive behavior for privacy is a trade I’ll only take for so long, and depending on court results, they may be losing a customer.

Re: Apple Disabling 'Sign in with Apple' for Epic Games on September 11

#490

Post by jsjohnst » Thu, Sep 10, 2020, 2:21 AM UTC

supernovae wrote: post #137

Spivak wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think regulators will really see a difference when it comes to the actual market forces at play. If MS doesn't bless your game it's dead regardless of if it's technically possible to get it to run.

Well, Apple crossed that bridge, Microsoft hasn't. I can't for the life of me care what Xbox does when they're not kicking publishers off the store and obviously Epic has their games on Xbox and Playstation so something is different/better in that relationship. Truth is Xbox does have independent developer programs and you can sideload games.

> Truth is Xbox does have independent developer programs and you can sideload games.

Truth is, iOS has the same. You have been able to sideload apps on iOS, without paying for a developer account, for years.