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Apple Disabling 'Sign in with Apple' for Epic Games on September 11

macrumors.com

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Re: Apple Disabling 'Sign in with Apple' for Epic Games on September 11

#201

Post by josephcsible »

jmpman wrote: post #25
aboringusername wrote: post #6

This is something many people feared might happen, and now, it's become a reality: Apple can, at will, remove your entire foundation or business, your (their) customers and your existence on iOS is just gone. Apple is a company that needs to be brought down a peg or two, it's far too 'valuable' in terms of its market worth, and needs a huge kick up the ass as Microsoft once had to show them some respect. And the EU w…

Replace Apple’s iOS ecosystem with Microsoft’s Xbox, Sony’s PlayStation or Nintendo’s Switch. Either you destroy the console ecosystem by forcing them all to open up, or classify iOS as somehow different... or you leave them all to enforce their business agreements through mutually accepted legal term. If Epic doesn’t want a different agreement than Apple, they can negotiate alternative legal terms.

> you destroy the console ecosystem by forcing them all to open up

Consoles opening up would be a good thing. I'm not sure why you say it would destroy their ecosystem.

Re: Apple Disabling 'Sign in with Apple' for Epic Games on September 11

#202

Post by danShumway »

thaumasiotes wrote: post #196
danShumway wrote: post #186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's called the PC market. Consoles are nothing but closed PCs. Eh.. no, I think this is reductive. In addition to being closed PCs, consoles are also an OS and collection of services that make playing games easier and make the process of configuring the device easy. They also often come with unique hardware (3DS, Wii U, Switch, Vita) that offer dedicated features that don't make sense on PCs. Most importantly, con…

> Most importantly, consoles are standardized PCs. It's not that they're closed, it's that if a game says it works on the Switch, and you have a Switch, that's it. That's all you need to know. PCs offer a lot more complication because there are multiple hardware variations and because the OS isn't specially designed to provide a lot of dedicated frameworks and interfaces to make running games and taking advantage of…

> As I read inetknght, he's talking about making the hardware open, not letting people sell games for it.

My apologies, I misread inetknght's comment.

Agreed, a user-built console without any standardization is just a PC, maybe with a different OS.

Re: Apple Disabling 'Sign in with Apple' for Epic Games on September 11

#203

Post by marcosscriven »

The thing I find fascinating is how people come together in groups to form companies. And then the behaviour of those people is no longer assigned to them, but the company. Apple does this, Epic does that. But both are made of individuals. All those individuals have choices. Some of those individuals are unspeakably greedy.

Re: Apple Disabling 'Sign in with Apple' for Epic Games on September 11

#204

Post by danesparza »

tln wrote: post #189
hello_tyler wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They broke the TOS on purpose and are now crying about that Apple actually held the line. I think Apple is way overpriced too, but when you go into their ecosystem and profit on it - you have to play by the rules. If you break the rules, you get removed. I would expect the same treatment on any app store.

They broke a guideline on purpose. Apple responded by removing from the app store. That's normal. Apple's other actions are just retaliatory: threatening the unreal engine, terminating developer accounts from affiliates, and yanking Apple login. It's those actions that you shouldn't expect.

I disagree. I think Epic Games and the affiliates didn't think through the ramifications for the actions taken by Epic Games.

Epic Games is free to build their own phone and app store platform. There is nothing stopping them. Other than the risk that people don't want to buy into whatever they build. But Apple had the same risks.

If this is truly a good faith negotiation (and not a stunt) on the part of Epic Games, they need to understand they're just losing the negotiation -- that's all. Business is business. Epic Games is just bad at it.

Re: Apple Disabling 'Sign in with Apple' for Epic Games on September 11

#205

Post by fxtentacle »

aboringusername wrote: post #6

This is something many people feared might happen, and now, it's become a reality: Apple can, at will, remove your entire foundation or business, your (their) customers and your existence on iOS is just gone. Apple is a company that needs to be brought down a peg or two, it's far too 'valuable' in terms of its market worth, and needs a huge kick up the ass as Microsoft once had to show them some respect. And the EU w…

I can't help but think that the whole thing is playing out exactly like Epic had hoped.

After Apple kicked Fortnite from the iOS store, there was an outcry of people who had previously spent money on it through Apple's in-app purchases and now wanted a refund.

Some of those users switched to playing Fortnite on a laptop or Android phone instead, but of course they were still using Sign in with Apple if they had originally created their account and paid for items on iOS. Apple is now locking out those users.

So I predict another wave of upset users, this time it'll be the people that purchased through Apple and were then attempting to play elsewhere.

Meanwhile, Epic now has a very good reason to collect a working email address from every past iOS customer, which they can immediately use to offer the customer a 20% rebate on future purchases if they buy directly through Epic and circumvent the Apple tax.

Plus as an added benefit, Japan has now started an antitrust investigation against Apple after various smaller Japanese game studios (most of them Unreal Engine customers) have come out in support of Epic: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-09-03/apple-app...

And lastly, the combination of pressure on Epic together with the looming iOS14 update have made iOS a lot less attractive for mobile game studios, most of whom traditionally used advertisements to subsidize free players: https://www.consumeracquisition.com/game-over-ios-14-idfa-lo...

I found this quote which I think is quite fitting: "As the folks at Microsoft used to say in the early days of the Xbox, developers are the canaries in the coal mine. When they start dying, the platform is in trouble."

https://venturebeat.com/2020/09/04/the-deanbeat-apple-must-t...

Re: Apple Disabling 'Sign in with Apple' for Epic Games on September 11

#206

Post by animex »

sandstrom wrote: post #2

Alright, so Apple are forcing all developers to add Sign-in with Apple (if they have other third-party login services), privacy benefits aside. But if you Apple decide that they don't like you anymore, they'll not only cut you off the App Store, they'll also bury all (or a subset of) your users. Apple is starting to act more and more like a bully. [1] https://developer.apple.com/app-store/review/guidelines/#sig...

And don't forget if you offer sign-in with G or F, and you don't add Sign in with A, you'll be in violation as well.

Re: Apple Disabling 'Sign in with Apple' for Epic Games on September 11

#208

Post by rapind »

danShumway wrote: post #117
ribosometronome wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The consequence isn't that your 3DS would have been better upon releasing, its that it wouldn't have released if the console market had been required to operate this way.

And again, I'm sympathetic to that argument. But then don't argue that the iPhone is exactly the same. I don't think anyone can reasonably argue that Apple would stop producing the iPhone if sideloading was allowed. The smartphone market doesn't operate the same way as the console market.

I wonder if they could just make that an option on purchase? “Do you want us to enforce security and privacy or do you want to take that on yourself?”. I for one would opt for handling my own privacy on some of my own devices, but would definitely lock my kids down with Apple approved only option.

Re: Apple Disabling 'Sign in with Apple' for Epic Games on September 11

#209

Post by extremeMath »

jmpman wrote: post #25
aboringusername wrote: post #6

This is something many people feared might happen, and now, it's become a reality: Apple can, at will, remove your entire foundation or business, your (their) customers and your existence on iOS is just gone. Apple is a company that needs to be brought down a peg or two, it's far too 'valuable' in terms of its market worth, and needs a huge kick up the ass as Microsoft once had to show them some respect. And the EU w…

Replace Apple’s iOS ecosystem with Microsoft’s Xbox, Sony’s PlayStation or Nintendo’s Switch. Either you destroy the console ecosystem by forcing them all to open up, or classify iOS as somehow different... or you leave them all to enforce their business agreements through mutually accepted legal term. If Epic doesn’t want a different agreement than Apple, they can negotiate alternative legal terms.

Maybe because I'm PCmasterrace, but all of those alternative examples are bad too.

Re: Apple Disabling 'Sign in with Apple' for Epic Games on September 11

#210

Post by foepys »

fooey wrote: post #170
ping_pong wrote: post #112

To me Apple is only proving Epic's point. Don't you dare make Apple mad, otherwise your entire business on Apple ecosystem will be destroyed.

All it's showing is that breaking contracts has repercussions. If you abuse a service, and they cut you off, you don't get to cry about them enforcing their rules.

Contracts are not necessarily lawful.
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