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Why is there a normal galaxy sitting at the edge of the Universe?

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Re: Why is there a normal galaxy sitting at the edge of the Universe?

#101
post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry for also asking a space 101 question, but since the fabric of space is expanding, does that mean that things are getting bigger as well? Naively, it would seem that way. In your balloon example, the dots would get bigger.

Just to add to your question: The usual response of “it only affects space between galaxies not inside galaxies” is deeply unsatisfying, and feels like it must be an oversimplification. What I think is meant, but I absolutely want someone wiser to confirm or refute , is that the rate of expansion is proportional to distance, and therefore so small inside a single galaxy it can be ignored. What I don’t know is: can an…

> What I think is meant, but I absolutely want someone wiser to confirm or refute, is that the rate of expansion is proportional to distance, and therefore so small inside a single galaxy it can be ignored.

I am not that person. But I feel like this can't work -- if all space is expanding equally, in proportion to its own extent, then we would perceive no expansion at all. If two points start out 1 light year apart, and over time 1 light year expands to be 10% longer than it was before... and also, everything in the universe expands to be 10% larger in all spatial dimensions... then the distance in meters between the two points hasn't changed, because meters grew too.

Re: Why is there a normal galaxy sitting at the edge of the Universe?

#102

All right hackernews. Genuine question, not sure where else to ask. If galaxies and stars at the other “end” formed out of matter resulting from the big bang, just as the matter we are made of, how did we get here at the same time that that matter got there? Is it because speeds faster than light are possible, and around the big bang all matter was spread near instantly at that speed? I don't understand how matter of…

I don't fully understand your question to give a direct answer, but I think that's mostly due to a number of misconceptions you hold about the universe. So I'll just try to clear those up instead.

First of all, the big bang didn't happen somewhere, it happened everywhere. There's no "center" of the universe that everything is moving away from. The universe did not start from a point, it started from a small scale factor and the scale factor rapidly increased.

Assuming the universe is infinite (we're not sure), you could think of it as expontentially more infinities being created all the time. Say you take a 1-dimensional line and put tick marks 1cm apart, to positive and negative infinity. Then you multiply every tick mark position by 2. Two times infinity is still infinity, but the nature of the infinity has changed: it's scaled up by a factor of two. You could then subdivide it again, adding markings in between, 1 cm apart. You can think of these new markings as representing new centimeters which have appeared on your 1D line. This is happening to the universe in three dimensions.

Now, instead of doing this by discrete intervals, just do it constantly, so the scale factor is always expanding. Any two points are always moving apart from each other at the rate of this expansion, let's say 1cm/cm/sec. Now, introduce an attractive force between objects (e.g. gravity) which obeys the inverse square law. If the objects are sufficiently close to one another, they'll move towards each other at a rate faster than 1cm/sec, which would overcome the expansion force and allow them to remain together. In the real universe, the fundamental forces have this effect, and this is why we don't observe everything flying apart on local scales.

Now let's say that the maximum speed limit is 10cm/sec, and light travels at this speed across our 1D line. If we have two objects 2cm apart, then the distance between them will grow by 2cm in one second. In that time, light from each will have travelled the same distance and met one another. Now, they're 4cm apart, and in the next second will travel 4cm apart, twice as fast. Light can still make this journey. At the next tick, they're 8cm apart, and light still makes it. 2/16th of a second later and they'll be 10cm apart and moving away from each other at the speed of light.

At this point, no future emissions will reach them. However, we haven't been emitting discrete light pulses - galaxies continuously emit staggering amounts of light. So, the space between them is full of light which is constantly making the journey towards the other end. If no other factors were at play, they'd still be receiving old light from each other forever. But there are other factors at play: the inverse square law, combined with the increasing redshift, will eventually reduce the light to effectively nothing.

These factors are sufficient to extend the effective observation duration of distant objects well after they've crossed the lightspeed event horizon. To recontextualize this into our real universe, we can look at extremely distant objects like GN-z11, which is 32 billion light years away. If light were to re-tread this distance, it would require twice the current age of the universe to complete the journey. However, this light only took 13.4 billion years to reach us, because it was emitted when the universe was much closer together, and carried towards us on the "flow" of expanding space time, while the object was carried away from us on that same "flow" - faster than the speed of light.

Oh, and it's also worth noting that the rate of expansion wasn't always consistent. Check out this wiki: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inflation_(cosmology)

Re: Why is there a normal galaxy sitting at the edge of the Universe?

#103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In case anyone is confused, I prefer to explain the expansion of space without metaphors. Space itself is getting larger, everywhere, all at once. The scale factor of the universe is getting larger. New space is constantly being "made". Every second, every kilometer in the universe grows by 2.2×10^-18 centimeters. If no other forces were in play, it'd carry everything along with it and pull everything a bit further a…

It would be interesting to hear your answer to mekkkkkk‘s question

I didn't really understand mekkkkkk's question, but I wrote up a longer reply here at your prompting:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24424626

Re: Why is there a normal galaxy sitting at the edge of the Universe?

#104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In case anyone is confused, I prefer to explain the expansion of space without metaphors. Space itself is getting larger, everywhere, all at once. The scale factor of the universe is getting larger. New space is constantly being "made". Every second, every kilometer in the universe grows by 2.2×10^-18 centimeters. If no other forces were in play, it'd carry everything along with it and pull everything a bit further a…

It would be interesting to hear your answer to mekkkkkk‘s question

I thought it was explained. Local gravity is moving things together much faster than general expansion is moving them apart. At super super long distances, gravity is weaker than expansion, so something very far is disappearing while something nearby may be collapsing.

However, that questions a different future I’ve seen in popular science talks: That the future becomes dark because of expansion. That makes less sense to me now, since it would seem that a merged set of galaxies would keep plenty of local stars in the skies. Assuming that stars are born as fast as they die (but I don’t recall seeing an answer to the ratio of star births vs star deaths at a local level).

Re: Why is there a normal galaxy sitting at the edge of the Universe?

#105
post #59

All right hackernews. Genuine question, not sure where else to ask. If galaxies and stars at the other “end” formed out of matter resulting from the big bang, just as the matter we are made of, how did we get here at the same time that that matter got there? Is it because speeds faster than light are possible, and around the big bang all matter was spread near instantly at that speed? I don't understand how matter of…

this is because things aren’t ‘moving apart’— space itself is expanding (into what? nobody knows). it’s not that the galaxies are being propelled apart from a force in a particular place either; everything is expanding away from everything else . On the traditional balloon model, the surface of the balloon represents space itself. Those dots on the surface of an expanding balloon are not moving relative to space (the…

> On the traditional balloon model, the surface of the balloon represents space itself...

For any still confused, there is also a 'raisin bread' model (which I prefer because it's 3D, unlike the surface of a balloon). The raisins are galaxies, and the bread is the space between them. As it bakes, the raisins get further apart, even though the raisins aren't moving through the dough.

(Although galaxies also have movement through space, this isn't what is causing them to get further apart.)

Re: Why is there a normal galaxy sitting at the edge of the Universe?

#106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It would be interesting to hear your answer to mekkkkkk‘s question

I thought it was explained. Local gravity is moving things together much faster than general expansion is moving them apart. At super super long distances, gravity is weaker than expansion, so something very far is disappearing while something nearby may be collapsing. However, that questions a different future I’ve seen in popular science talks: That the future becomes dark because of expansion. That makes less sens…

The rate of expansion is speeding up. If it continues to increase, eventually it'll have observable effects at interstellar scales, and even interplanetary scales, and ultimately tear everything apart in the "big rip". Note that I'm omitting a lot of context here, there's a lot of other factors which make the big rip scenario much less likely.

Also, the age of star formation will eventually end. Stars will stop forming somewhere between 1 trillion and 100 trillion years in the future.

Re: Why is there a normal galaxy sitting at the edge of the Universe?

#107
post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, 13 billion years is the age of the universe. The observable universe is a sphere with a diameter of ~93 billion light years (And is likely to only be a subset of the entire universe).

I have a question: Just over 20 years ago when the accepted view was that the expansion of the universe was slowing down, would you have backed that position with as much certainty as you are backing this one? That the universe is a mere 13.7 billion years old? We cannot prove the absence of light in a place that is already so far away that it's light will never reach us. Do you agree? We can prove what we can observ…

This is just pedantry. Don't get me wrong, these are interesting questions, questions that should be asked and should be thought about, even if the answers are likely unknowable. But taking issue with the age of the universe because we don't know what existed before isn't useful.

Age is a relative thing. I say I'm xx years old based on the date of my birth. But I existed as a fetus before then. I existed as an ovum before that. I existed as stardust for billions of years before that. Perhaps I can mull over what it means to exist, and when "me" came to be, but when I have to enter my age while filling out some form I'm not going to write a philosophy essay. For practical purposes I am xx years old, and for practical purposes the universe is 13.7 billion years old.

Re: Why is there a normal galaxy sitting at the edge of the Universe?

#108

All right hackernews. Genuine question, not sure where else to ask. If galaxies and stars at the other “end” formed out of matter resulting from the big bang, just as the matter we are made of, how did we get here at the same time that that matter got there? Is it because speeds faster than light are possible, and around the big bang all matter was spread near instantly at that speed? I don't understand how matter of…

> Genuine question, not sure where else to ask.

Physics stack exchange

Re: Why is there a normal galaxy sitting at the edge of the Universe?

#109
post #61
post #2

Nice gravitational lens observation! We're hoping to use the same technique with the Sun to observe exoplanets by launching a fleet of small satellites to 547 AU (80 billion km / ~3 light days). The craft would sample the distorted Einstein ring around our Sun from that vantage point, then combine and reconstruct an image of the disk of an Earth-like exoplanet up to 100 light-years beyond, at a resolution of 25 kilom…

How do you propose to power a fleet of spacecraft at 550AU? Would you be able to acquire enough RTGs? What about DSN time for the downlink?

That webpage says a tech demo is due 2024, with launch in 2034 and the constellation would reach 550AU by 2064, so probably a lot of how this will work is still WIP.

Re: Why is there a normal galaxy sitting at the edge of the Universe?

#110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It would be interesting to hear your answer to mekkkkkk‘s question

It was answered, as far as I can tell: > However, local forces like gravity and the strong and even the weak nuclear force are more than sufficient to hold everything together despite this, so the expansion cannot be locally observed.

OK, we have a meter stick. It's made of pure iron and, for whatever physical reasons, it is 1 meter long exactly.

After some time, the scale factor of the universe grows, so that 1 new meter is 1.05 old meters. But, by hypothesis, as this happens, our meter stick contracts, so that it ends up being just 0.952 new meters (= 1 old meter) long. Why? Did the physical laws governing iron atoms change so that they pack more densely than before?

And if so, why do all particles pack at exactly the same new density? Shouldn't it differ from molecule to molecule?

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