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Apple Disabling 'Sign in with Apple' for Epic Games on September 11

macrumors.com

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Re: Apple Disabling 'Sign in with Apple' for Epic Games on September 11

#91

Post by danShumway »

jmpman wrote: post #25
aboringusername wrote: post #6

This is something many people feared might happen, and now, it's become a reality: Apple can, at will, remove your entire foundation or business, your (their) customers and your existence on iOS is just gone. Apple is a company that needs to be brought down a peg or two, it's far too 'valuable' in terms of its market worth, and needs a huge kick up the ass as Microsoft once had to show them some respect. And the EU w…

Replace Apple’s iOS ecosystem with Microsoft’s Xbox, Sony’s PlayStation or Nintendo’s Switch. Either you destroy the console ecosystem by forcing them all to open up, or classify iOS as somehow different... or you leave them all to enforce their business agreements through mutually accepted legal term. If Epic doesn’t want a different agreement than Apple, they can negotiate alternative legal terms.

People should be careful drawing too many comparisons to consoles, because as someone who owns rooted consoles that run homebrew mods, I can attest that it's actually awesome and improves the user experience in about a dozen ways.

My 3DS supports savestates & backups for games like Animal Crossing that let me maintain multiple towns at the same time, custom emulators that run my old Gameboy cartridge backups that I made, really amazing mods like Project Restoration for Majora's Mask, plus custom themes and easier storage management for things like pictures and songs. By comparison, an unhacked Switch still can't even back up all of its save games to the cloud.

If you don't want us to go after consoles as well, maybe don't tempt us? I'm sympathetic to the argument that being loss leaders makes consoles unique and special and different from a smartphone, but if the general consensus here is that they're exactly the same...

If you're arguing that this case is a slippery slope, try to come up with some consequences farther down the slope that don't sound kind of nice.

Re: Apple Disabling 'Sign in with Apple' for Epic Games on September 11

#92

Post by modeless »

RL_Quine wrote: post #69
modeless wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you have a reference for this?

https://www.macrumors.com/2020/08/25/apple-statement-restrai... "We agree with Judge Gonzalez-Rogers that 'the sensible way to proceed' is for Epic to comply with the App Store guidelines and continue to operate while the case proceeds. If Epic takes the steps the judge has recommended, we will gladly welcome Fortnite back onto iOS. We look forward to making our case to the court in September."

You're right. I hadn't seen that Apple had stated this explicitly. I guess Epic filed another motion to the judge to try and prevent Apple from allegedly illegally forcing them to comply, so they're currently waiting to see the result before taking more actions.

Edit: Oh, and Epic also says Apple privately threatened to ban them for a year, contradicting what they said in court.

Re: Apple Disabling 'Sign in with Apple' for Epic Games on September 11

#93

Post by londons_explore »

boudin wrote: post #86
londons_explore wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> And the EU will levy the world's biggest fine at Apple, Not soon... Apple is loved by a good majority of EU citizens, and while that's the case, the EU won't fine them. Fines are for 'evil corporations' as deemed by a voter...

What is this based on?

Conjecture.

Laws in the EU are far less strict and precise to begin with than US laws that you might be used to. The EU competition commission has wideranging powers to fine almost any company as it sees fit for even no reason at all. But to maintain its own existence, the public (voters -> MEPs) need to think it's doing a good job. A good way to do that is to fine companies voters think are evil.

Re: Apple Disabling 'Sign in with Apple' for Epic Games on September 11

#94

Post by criddell »

cletus wrote: post #23

So this showdown between Epic and Apple is really interesting. My thoughts: 1. Epic had to know Apple would go nuclear. If they didn't, they're completely incompetent. Let's assume that's not the case. So Epic was itching for a fight. Maybe they were delusional about Fortnite's power here? 2. Apple is going nuclear here. The message is that Apple wants to crush this. This is Apple making an example of Epic. It looks…

> Personally I think for the vast majority of developers the Apple payment ecosystem makes sense.

I think if that were true, Apple wouldn't fight this fight. They would find some way to accommodate the giants and keep taking 30% of small developer's paychecks. I think most smaller developers would like the option to choose a different store. They might not use it, but who wouldn't like the option?

Re: Apple Disabling 'Sign in with Apple' for Epic Games on September 11

#95

Post by henryfjordan »

minhazm wrote: post #37
modeless wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Epic alleges that Apple is breaking the law, and breaking the App Store rules was a pretty much required step to establish standing to sue. Is Apple above the legal system, such that they should be able to destroy businesses that dare to challenge them in court, regardless of the merits of their claims and before they are even heard?

Your comment makes it sound it sound like Apple is breaking the law. Epic could have brought on this lawsuit while still complying with the App Store rules, in fact the judge suggested they do that so their users aren't impacted. They wouldn't be getting kicked off right now and the Sign-in with Apple button wouldn't be getting disabled. They chose to break the app store rules, which they did agreed to, AND they also…

> Your comment makes it sound it sound like Apple is breaking the law.

Epic is alleging that Apple is breaking the law. That's the whole point of the antitrust lawsuit, to decide if they are or are not.

> Epic could have brought on this lawsuit while still complying with the App Store rules

No they could not. They needed standing to sue. "Apple is doing what the contract says and we don't like it" does not establish standing. Epic needed to act as though the contract was illegal, suffer some harm, and then they have standing to sue. That's exactly what happened.

You are correct that they could revert their changes and comply for the time being and Apple seems amenable to that.

Re: Apple Disabling 'Sign in with Apple' for Epic Games on September 11

#96

Post by tinus_hn »

aboringusername wrote: post #6

This is something many people feared might happen, and now, it's become a reality: Apple can, at will, remove your entire foundation or business, your (their) customers and your existence on iOS is just gone. Apple is a company that needs to be brought down a peg or two, it's far too 'valuable' in terms of its market worth, and needs a huge kick up the ass as Microsoft once had to show them some respect. And the EU w…

> And the EU will levy the world's biggest fine at Apple, I predict north of $5 billion if not $10 billion for abusing their status with this being a notable case.

Just like they ended the Microsoft OS monopoly abuses. Dream on.

Re: Apple Disabling 'Sign in with Apple' for Epic Games on September 11

#97

Post by Spivak »

save_ferris wrote: post #80
jmpman wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Replace Apple’s iOS ecosystem with Microsoft’s Xbox, Sony’s PlayStation or Nintendo’s Switch. Either you destroy the console ecosystem by forcing them all to open up, or classify iOS as somehow different... or you leave them all to enforce their business agreements through mutually accepted legal term. If Epic doesn’t want a different agreement than Apple, they can negotiate alternative legal terms.

> Either you destroy the console ecosystem by forcing them all to open up How is this true? Consoles predate app stores by many decades.

Consoles were and still are app stores in their entirety. Just because the technical sophistication to lock them down tight wasn't there at the beginning and they could be "hacked" didn't mean the same rules didn't apply. If you want to release a game on Xbox, PlayStation, or GameBoy, you did so at the will of Microsoft, Sony, or Nintendo. They did, and still do, tightly control the content that's allowed on their consoles.

Re: Apple Disabling 'Sign in with Apple' for Epic Games on September 11

#98

Post by viridian »

pjmlp wrote: post #56
cletus wrote: post #23

So this showdown between Epic and Apple is really interesting. My thoughts: 1. Epic had to know Apple would go nuclear. If they didn't, they're completely incompetent. Let's assume that's not the case. So Epic was itching for a fight. Maybe they were delusional about Fortnite's power here? 2. Apple is going nuclear here. The message is that Apple wants to crush this. This is Apple making an example of Epic. It looks…

Like the dying days of Sony, Nintendo and Microsoft game ecosystems?

One of those companies is going for a last ditch hail mary while facing financial ruin, and if they aren't successful, they will end up out of the hardware game.

Re: Apple Disabling 'Sign in with Apple' for Epic Games on September 11

#99

Post by mjevans »

awinder wrote: post #85
gamblor956 wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unlike Apple, larger developers can use their market leverage to negotiate better rates, and many have, which is why you don't hear Epic or Rockstar complaining about MS or Sony. This point is key to the difference, since antitrust is about market interference. If market participants can use their own leverage to push back against another participant's market activities, then you don't have an antitrust violation. Ap…

“ Microsoft and Playstation also allow for cross-platform play, and crucially unlike Apple, actually provide a significant amount of services to developers for their cuts, including but not limited to QA services, SDK and hardware support from actual MS/Sony employees, and marketing spend” I don’t understand how this is materially different from apples investments into Xcode, discoverability & promotion in the App St…

A monopoly in a legal sense is different from one someone with deep pockets willing to litigate over. The little people are not equal in the US legal system.

Re: Apple Disabling 'Sign in with Apple' for Epic Games on September 11

#100

Post by Spivak »

supernovae wrote: post #77
jmpman wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Replace Apple’s iOS ecosystem with Microsoft’s Xbox, Sony’s PlayStation or Nintendo’s Switch. Either you destroy the console ecosystem by forcing them all to open up, or classify iOS as somehow different... or you leave them all to enforce their business agreements through mutually accepted legal term. If Epic doesn’t want a different agreement than Apple, they can negotiate alternative legal terms.

Microsoft has allowed sideloading and community developed games and apps on Xbox for a while now.

I don't think regulators will really see a difference when it comes to the actual market forces at play. If MS doesn't bless your game it's dead regardless of if it's technically possible to get it to run.
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