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Tech firms face growing resentment of parent employees during Covid-19

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Re: Tech firms face growing resentment of parent employees during Covid-19

#952
post #848

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s mathematics. Your society ceases to exist surprisingly quickly if people don’t have kids. And as one of the immigrants folks in the first world are counting on to perpetuate their society, the child hostile culture still sucks. I don’t think my parents appreciated this aspect of moving to America—raising kids without the network of parents you can count on in other countries. My wife and I had kids at a pretty n…

Did I read it right? Child-free people are not normal?

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Re: Tech firms face growing resentment of parent employees during Covid-19

#953

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just do yourself a favor and relearn basic human empathy again.

I have. I have a lot of empathy for children who are going hungry because their parents brought them into this world without a means to support them. I have a lot of empathy for children who are unwanted, ignored, and otherwise harmed by "inconvenienced" parents. I have no empathy - I have nothing but contempt - for the parents who bring those children into this world.

I've heard this argument before: "I have no empathy for people who bring children into this world" but rather from a financial perspective, it's from a climate change perspective. Like the financial perspective, If you peel back the layers, what it all boils down to is the individual's selfishness, and inability to see the humanity in others.

The other issue I have with this line of reasoning is everyone seems to have their own qualifiers on what sort of situation should or should not be available for birthing children. How about we make childrearing (as it has been for basically all of history) a pre-eminent feature of our humanity and existence? There is nothing more awe-inspiring (or more powerful) than bringing new life into this world. It symbolizes a chance to start fresh and anew.

Don't taint this with postmodernist critiques of what should or should not constitute a stable environment for bringing new life into the world.

(Just to drive the point home, George Carlin once had a great skit that had quite a bit of truth to it, exposing the hypocrisy of the then "environmentalists" at the time: it's not about saving anything or "the children" it's about making the world more comfortable, clean, and cozy for themselves. In this case it's "ugh why do people who can't afford children keep having them? they just are a drain on society! Now I am going to have to feel guilty about all those starving children! How irresponsible of those parents!" -- and similar objections -- It's really selfishness when it's all said and done. The most ironic part I find, is the people who tend espouse such beliefs tend to be on the left side of the political spectrum, who vilify the "personal responsibility" mantra of the right, yet this is just another form of that.)

Re: Tech firms face growing resentment of parent employees during Covid-19

#954

I am a middle-aged adult with no children who's worked at tech firms for the past couple decades. To be honest, the "resentment" of those without children have for "benefits" those with children get strikes me as extremely selfish, immature and displaying a total lack of empathy. This is time off specifically to take care of children, something now that has become exceedingly more difficult in Covid times. What's nex…

As a mid 30s childless man I completely agree. We essentially sent people home on a Friday, told them to figure out a work from home situation, and then they were told welp your kids aren't going to school either, and whatever childcare you had lined up has now vanished too- and this is all happening in the course of a few days at most. So now you have kids to worry about all day, home schooling to oversee, focusing…

I'm in favor of many of the social safety nets so I'm playing devils advocate here to a certain extent. Also, this is probably a (largely) US-centrism take.

I think the US is still largely affected by the rugged-individualistic psyche. There was an HN article yesterday that studied the personality traits in the previous mountain/frontier and indicated these ideals persist, more in some areas than others.

So I think this impacts the mindset, particularly when an individual is asked to sacrifice for the better of the group. "Why should I pay for their life choices?" they may say. If I'm in a position to contribute more than my share, I am grateful to be in that position to a certain extent. I personally feel there is still an individual benefit by create a more stable society but I can also empathize with those who don't feel the same.

Re: Tech firms face growing resentment of parent employees during Covid-19

#955

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have small elementary age kids. It’s rough. 8-10 interruptions the first couple hours of work. Then meltdown over being hungry. Then afternoon interruptions because they are bored. Lots of crappy reasons, but also because they want me to spend time with them. Also dealing with my own chronic illness. I was managing to cope/hide before Covid. Between it all is a sense of guilt of not getting enough done for work and n…

Move to an area where you can afford a house on one income or two half incomes and stop working so much. If you want to raise a family, raise one. That's your choice. If you want other people to subsidize your productivity and/or income so you can live beyond your means in an area where you can't afford to raise a family, then that's a big ask.

[deleted]

Re: Tech firms face growing resentment of parent employees during Covid-19

#956
post #5

Personally, I struggle with these feelings as well. It seems nuts that someone working 50%+ less than someone else is going to keep all the same equity, vacation, and salary. Then again it seems nuts that they don't. All employees who had children or family members to care for before or after COVID get none of the same support. I don't think backpay is coming for those who were forced to take leave or even quit their…

I agree with you that society should support them. But not the companies.

I think the companies should provide benefits uniformly for all its employees, but the government should provide the extra benefits for adverse situations, such as these for parents.

I think Sweden has a similar model (?), where parents have sick days for their children where the government pays your salary when you take these days off to take care of them. I believe it's called VAB.

Re: Tech firms face growing resentment of parent employees during Covid-19

#957
post #525
post #312

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then is it cool if I skip a few meetings to volunteer to help the homeless? We already heavily subsidise child-rearing through taxes and other benefits. As I said elsewhere, there are mechanisms for supporting parents already. If you tried to let any other charitable endeavour take over your work schedule, you wouldn't expect your compensation to remain unaffected. I'm not resentful at parents. It just seems complete…

One of the many reasons I have had kids is as a service to humanity. It’s definitely fun, but way too many people just cannot be bothered so someone has to. I kind of want our race/country/planet to continue existing even if I can’t.

I can't fathom this perspective. Who looks around themselves, seeing the amazing, world-altering scale of human population and says to themselves "You know what this place needs? More of me!"?

Re: Tech firms face growing resentment of parent employees during Covid-19

#958

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Someone has to provide the goods and services you'll consume when you're old. Those people are today's kids, whose parents are doing you a big favor at considerable expense to themselves. Raising children isn't like smoking, a hobby, a side hustle, or other miscellaneous personal obligations. It's more like military service and jury duty -- an essential service that some people perform to ensure that society as we kn…

> Someone has to provide the goods and services you'll consume when you're old. Those people are today's kids... Or immigrant labour. I'm not a parent-hater or a child-hater ( One Billion Americans Go Go Go!) but you can import a lot of people. Heck I'd boost the economy by sustained long term importation of labour to bolster birth so that we can target long term of a billion Americans.

But why? Do we not look down the road and see that this is basically like an endless arms race, with the environment and the long-term survivability of the planet itself hanging in the balance? Are people happier when they live in a country of 300 million versus a country of 150 million? I completely don't understand the interest some people seem to have in increasing population "just because bigger number".

Re: Tech firms face growing resentment of parent employees during Covid-19

#959

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have small elementary age kids. It’s rough. 8-10 interruptions the first couple hours of work. Then meltdown over being hungry. Then afternoon interruptions because they are bored. Lots of crappy reasons, but also because they want me to spend time with them. Also dealing with my own chronic illness. I was managing to cope/hide before Covid. Between it all is a sense of guilt of not getting enough done for work and n…

Move to an area where you can afford a house on one income or two half incomes and stop working so much. If you want to raise a family, raise one. That's your choice. If you want other people to subsidize your productivity and/or income so you can live beyond your means in an area where you can't afford to raise a family, then that's a big ask.

First, rather than look at these necessary accomodations as something workers shouldn't get, you should look at it as a very useful bit of flexibility that all workers should receive.

You are thinking about this from a single perspective, but it is a massively complicated & interconnected issue.

For one other perspective, consider what would happen is companies didn't do what you call "subsidizing". Effected employees can't then keep their job, they have to take leave or find another job all together. That's bad for the company which loses experienced employees and must now pay to identify, recruit, and train a new person, who doesn't know as much about how things run in that business. That person is going to be much less efficient for 6-months to 1-year before they are completely comfortable. You are then subsidizing them instead.

Or consider a broader economic perspective: Let's imagine companies say they won't subsidize like this and impacted people have to take a 10% pay cut. Over 60% of the workforce in the US is white collar, jobs more likely to be WFH possible. That works out to about 79,000,000 workers. Average salary for White Collar jobs is $60,000. Let's say 1/3 need to work from home for family reasons, and they all take a 10% pay cut. That means the economy loses $158 Billion dollars. That is nearly 1% of our GDP, just in that one move, and it doesn't end there: Those people cut back spending. Areas heavy with such workers, like major cities, SV, etc., suddenly have a huge % of their customer base that has to cut back spending. Businesses like restaurants etc., already hurting, take another hit because 1/3 of 60% of all workers (works out to about 18% of the total workforce) now has to cut back discretionary spending. Even if that accounts for only half their 10% pay cut, that's equivalent to almost a 10% reduction in customer base.

Or consider it from a healthcare standpoint: Putting additional stress on this portion of the workforce will have significantly higher stress if "unsubsidized". That translates to more mental health problems, and expensive health care. Some of these workers may lose their insurance if they drop to part-time work, putting an even high burden on the the healthcare system.

Small things can have massive ripple effects. Saying "It's not fair!" is mostly not a helpful guide to resolving complex issues. Right now solutions are needed to keep society running while we get out of this crisis. Approaching it from a narrow sense of fairness is short sited. It won't be fair to the local shops that lose another chunk of their business. It won't be fair to other workers who have to pickup the slack left by a lost employees. If you're going to bring "fair" into things, you can't cherry pick only the one thing. That is one-dimensional thinking. You need to think multi dimensional. You need to consider second and third order effects.

Re: Tech firms face growing resentment of parent employees during Covid-19

#960
post #699

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ignoring the obvious downsides for a moment, I'd happily trade places with one of my childless coworkers right about now. This morning I went up and down the stairs at least ten times while trying to get my 7- and 9-year old kids successfully established in their first remote learning session, simultaneously participating in two consecutive Zoom meetings with coworkers, and figuring out how to solve a nagging issue i…

> This morning I went up and down the stairs at least ten times Not trying to be arch or disrespectful here, but I view these moments as an opportunity to get a quick cardio work on happening. (I work at home and I've had to make these trips for decades due to handicapped family members.)

Ha, I don't disagree! Getting some stairs in is good for my health. My point was more about how disruptive it is to try and juggle activities happening simultaneously all over the house. My office is upstairs, my kids do schoolwork at the dining table downstairs. We're working out a schedule where my wife and I will alternate between our offices and taking our laptops down to sit at the dining table next to the kids, but it's barely controlled chaos right now. It'll settle down a lot as everyone figures out the new routine, but it's never going to be as simple as getting them dressed, fed, and out the door to the school for the day.
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