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Apple countersues Epic, seeks punitive damages

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Re: Apple countersues Epic, seeks punitive damages

#361

Post by andy_ppp »

dep_b wrote: post #349
andy_ppp wrote: post #347

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But Apple’s costs are tiny compared to their margins, this isn’t logical as Apple can’t lose money on anything in the App Store, they didn’t invest in making the games did they? They are rent seeking to juice up their profits, it’s a great scam but I’d rather they concentrate on selling more hardware than ripping off developers.

If Epic itself cannot do it for less than 12% selling only the best earning category and serving barely any free games when they're trying to _prove_ that it can be done for less than 30% apparently running an App Store isn't as trivial as most people at HN make it appear to be. Also the 30% "rent seeking" happens on any platform Epic is on except the PC and Mac. They tried to go around the Google Play Store and pivo…

>>> Epic itself cannot do it for less than 12%

What makes you think this? How do you know they cannot do an App Store for less than 12%? Also there is such a thing as economies of scale - the app store probably sells many times more things than the Epic version.

You seem to mistakenly think the cost of selling X items on an App Store has a cost that is "cost of app store per thing" * "number of things sold". This isn't true, the cost of the App Store is fixed and has almost NOTHING to do with number of things sold.

I just think using your market dominance to squeeze developers who provide services for your users is kind of sick. Apple should be providing the App Store for free and thanking developers for selling so many phones, not ripping people off.

Re: Apple countersues Epic, seeks punitive damages

#362

Post by Razengan »

pier25 wrote: post #215
Razengan wrote: post #191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Many non-Apple users are sick of Epic's wolf-crying too, and companies bigger than Epic have tried smearing Apple before (see Samsung). Meanwhile, Apple is enjoying hereto-unseen levels of financial and critical success. The only things the majority of regular people are paying attention to is when the next iPhone, iPad, Apple Watch, AirPods etcetera are going to drop.

Not sure what your point is. It sounds like you're saying that companies should better not mess with Apple and that financial success puts you above criticism.

> I'm sure this was Epic's plan all along.

> Not sure what your point is.

Epic Games Asks Court to Allow Fortnite Back on the App Store: https://www.macrumors.com/2020/09/05/epic-injuction-fortnite...

Re: Apple countersues Epic, seeks punitive damages

#363

Post by tasssko »

simion314 wrote: post #277
applecrazy wrote: post #243

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> devs who feel that they can supply their own marketing and payment processing can do it themselves. The issue I have with that is that then a ton of companies think it's a good idea to ship a crappy "launcher" that needs to run on startup, taking up resources in the background while providing little to no added functionality. We can see that with PC games; it used to be just Steam, but now there's the Epic Games La…

And this is a good thing, competition between this stores is good for the users, some users got free games, some developers got better deals. The "needs to launch on startup" is FALSE , you can have this launchers set no to start at all and you launch the game and the launcher will start if needed (not all Steam games need Steam in background). FYI GOG launcher is optional, you can just download the game from the web…

the commenter is right and you have missed the point. There is no competition in this space. You can only get Fortnite from the Epic Games Launcher.

Re: Apple countersues Epic, seeks punitive damages

#364

Post by pjmlp »

dr_dshiv wrote: post #348
pjmlp wrote: post #338

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They have the choice to buy other brands.

They also have the choice to avoid smartphones altogether. What they want, though, is the ability to use apple hardware and non-apple software. The only reason they can't is because Apple won't let them, unless they pay a 30% commission

One cannot buy a house besides a landing lane and then complain planes are taking off and landing all day long.

If iOS doesn't offer what they want, don't buy Apple, plain and simple, there is nothing more to discuss and the judge will set this straight.

Re: Apple countersues Epic, seeks punitive damages

#365

Post by tasssko »

jbverschoor wrote: post #358
canofbars wrote: post #323

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>If you don't like the App Store, don't use an iPhone This is not the main issue, its on the other end. If you are a developer, and you don't like the App Store, you have no options. You can't publish on an alt store because those are not allowed. So your only option is to not provide services to 50% of your customers and thats assuming the google play store doesn't have the same issue you are avoiding. A real world…

Same for Nintendo, PS, Xbox, Android. And the other 'appstores' - steam, epic, etc Quite frankly, the lockdown of the OS and rejection of this is one of the primary reasons I'm on iPhone.

I couldn't agree more. It will only get worse if companies are allowed to create their own Appstores. Using these devices is already a difficult user experience we should be doing more to protect consumers who have already invested in the ecosystem. Apple is indirectly doing this.

Re: Apple countersues Epic, seeks punitive damages

#366

Post by jfim »

Lev1a wrote: post #335
vbezhenar wrote: post #274

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you don't like their launchers, don't use their apps, it's simple as that. They're free to create a software in a way they feel appropriate. You're free to use or not to use that software.

That's not so simple with the hypocrite named Epic who preach about competition being better for all while buying exclusive distribution rights from devs/publishers on PC, sometimes even for games that had been long announced to be coming out on Steam and/or were crowdfunded on that and other premises. Case in point: "Satisfactory". I was pretty excited about the game when it was first shown, then found later * it wo…

You can buy it on Steam now: https://store.steampowered.com/app/526870/Satisfactory/

Re: Apple countersues Epic, seeks punitive damages

#367

Post by heisenbit »

bww wrote: post #120

This is a very bad look on Apple. Regardless of the enforceability of their agreements, the sense of entitlement that underlies Apple’s position is shocking. The claim that Epic has “lined [its] pockets at Apple’s expense” implies that Apple deserves to sit in the middle of every transaction that happens on their devices and take a margin. This is the world’s most valuable company we’re talking about here; assertions…

Yes, and they should be more careful for their IPR stance not to become a mess. They demand a cut of the final price of the app product while they were fighting Qualcomm which also wanted a cut of the final value of the phone product. The demands for a percentage can be stretched only so far until they become totally disconnected from the reality and run the danger to be reigned in by a judge.

Re: Apple countersues Epic, seeks punitive damages

#368

Post by mvanbaak »

sunderw wrote: post #341
pjmlp wrote: post #244

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then give money to companies that don't offer that model. I have no understanding for anyone that buys Apple and then complains.

There aren't a lot of alternatives in the smartphone space. If you don't like Android, you're stuck with Apple. Now if both are abusing their power, using your reasoning, you're supposed to say and do nothing ?

No, one is allowed to do something.

One could, you know, make a case that it should be illegal, go to court to get that official, and then the way to implement your own payment processing is open.

But beginning at the last step, is totally the wrong order to do these kind of things.

Besides that, Epic and Apple had an agreement the moment Epic published fortnite in the app store. If they dont like the contract, they can leave. Again, if they think the terms are illegal, go fight that out BEFORE you implement something that breaks the contract.

Re: Apple countersues Epic, seeks punitive damages

#369

Post by tasssko »

realusername wrote: post #300
gigatexal wrote: post #296

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I see this argument everywhere and it makes no sense. The ToS is up to the owner of the platform. It's the same reason I don't use Facebook: I think the company and what they do with my data is diametrically opposed to my way of thinking so I voted to leave by deleting my account. Developer's do have a choice: abide by the ToS and enjoy the trappings of a user base that tends to spend more on applications be they sub…

> The ToS is up to the owner of the platform When there's only two companies fully controlling the next era of computing platforms, there's some argument that they have way too much power in their hand. > The game is like a car that drives on a road. The car is Epic's Fortnite. The road is a toll road. The road was built by Apple. Many cars can drive on this road but must pay a fee. (The analogy isn't 1:1 but work wi…

A better analogy is the game is like a ride at a theme park. The theme park was built by Apple. Many companies can make games/rides for the theme park but must pay a share of revenue from each customer going on rides. You can go on a ride at the theme park but you pay an entrance fee for the theme park and you pay to go on the rides.

Re: Apple countersues Epic, seeks punitive damages

#370

Post by dodobirdlord »

nullc wrote: post #151
simonh wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The other way to look at it is that I as a user hire Apple to vet and QA the apps released for iOS and manage my relationship with all those developers on my behalf. That’s the deal I knowingly enter into when I buy an iPhone and I’m quite happy with it. If others aren’t happy with it that’s fine too, just get a different phone. I don’t see any justification for coercing Apple into entering into commercial arrangemen…

This way of looking at it doesn't justify _apple_ having a cause of action against epic for seeking to do business with you, consensually, without apple's intervention.

Sure it does, Apple has a cause of action against Epic for violating a contractual arrangement, which has nothing to do with anyone other than Epic and Apple. The only caveat is that the contractual relationship in question might be found to be illegal. But it's not as though this isn't a case between Apple and Epic about a contract dispute.
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