Apple countersues Epic, seeks punitive damages • Hacker News Board

Re: Apple countersues Epic, seeks punitive damages

#281

Post by stale2002 » Wed, Sep 09, 2020, 6:43 AM UTC

cjoelrun wrote: post #129

bww wrote: post #120

This is a very bad look on Apple. Regardless of the enforceability of their agreements, the sense of entitlement that underlies Apple’s position is shocking. The claim that Epic has “lined [its] pockets at Apple’s expense” implies that Apple deserves to sit in the middle of every transaction that happens on their devices and take a margin. This is the world’s most valuable company we’re talking about here; assertions…

Isn't a better analogy that car dealerships deserve revenue for selling Toyota's cars? Running an app store and providing a safe platform for users isn't free right?

> Isn't a better analogy that car dealerships deserve revenue for selling Toyota's cars?

That depends. Is the car dealership making it impossible for me, as a buyer, to buy from different car dealerships, and forcing me to only buy it from them?

That would be a more similar analogy.

Epic would likely not have any problem at all, if it was possible to easily install the epic app store on the iPhone. But its not. Because Apple makes it almost impossible for competitors to install other app stores on the iPhone.

Re: Apple countersues Epic, seeks punitive damages

#282

Post by valuearb » Wed, Sep 09, 2020, 6:43 AM UTC

strictnein wrote: post #9

theflyingelvis wrote: post #5

“There is nothing anticompetitive about charging a commission for others to use one’s service,” Apple said in the filing. What about forcing someone or some company to use a service (apple's payment systems)?

Such a weird argument too, as if there was a different service Epic could use to reach > 50% of the US mobile market.

iPhones market share is less than 20%.

Re: Apple countersues Epic, seeks punitive damages

#283

Post by rhn_mk1 » Wed, Sep 09, 2020, 6:44 AM UTC

applecrazy wrote: post #243

canofbars wrote: post #218

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The real problem here is that companies are forced to accept apples terms. Because apple controls every level of the stack, to opt out of the App store ToS you have to opt out of the store, the OS, and the hardware. If there was a way to install apps outside of the store this would not be an issue. Most users and developers would still use the app store since it provides value but devs who feel that they can supply t…

> devs who feel that they can supply their own marketing and payment processing can do it themselves. The issue I have with that is that then a ton of companies think it's a good idea to ship a crappy "launcher" that needs to run on startup, taking up resources in the background while providing little to no added functionality. We can see that with PC games; it used to be just Steam, but now there's the Epic Games La…

The GoG launcher doesn't fit here as an example; it's entirely optional.

Re: Apple countersues Epic, seeks punitive damages

#284

Post by valuearb » Wed, Sep 09, 2020, 6:45 AM UTC

loktarogar wrote: post #42

> it is a multi-billion dollar enterprise that simply wants to pay nothing for the tremendous value it derives from the App Store. Half true. EPIC doesn't really get any value from the App Store except data delivery, which they're more than willing to do themselves. Fortnite is popular enough that the app discovery part of the store is meaningless.

Epic gets the safety and security of iOS from the App store, which makes iOS users spend almost ten times as much as Android users on apps.

Re: Apple countersues Epic, seeks punitive damages

#285

Post by stale2002 » Wed, Sep 09, 2020, 6:45 AM UTC

bananabreakfast wrote: post #262

akira2501 wrote: post #253

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Stop trying to spread the idea that the ability to make apps for the iPhone is an inalienable right. Yes, but neither should Apple have the right to prevent users from using alternative app stores and applications on their own iPhones.

Why should they not have that right? Does Sony not have the right to prevent users from using alternative game stores to run unofficial games on their PS4? Does Nintendo not have the right to prevent users from using an alternative to the eShop to download games for their Switch? Does Tesla not have the right to prevent users from downloading and running whatever random applications they wish on their Tesla?

> Why should they not have that right?

Because the phone belongs to the consumer, and the courts have already said that it is perfectly legal to jailbreak your phone, even though apple attempted to sue people who were doing this.

It is pretty horrible that Apple was trying to sue people, for modifying property that the consumer owned, and it required the courts to get involved, to clarify that it is perfectly legal to jail break your own property.

Re: Apple countersues Epic, seeks punitive damages

#286

Post by DonaldPShimoda » Wed, Sep 09, 2020, 6:49 AM UTC

vbezhenar wrote: post #274

applecrazy wrote: post #243

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> devs who feel that they can supply their own marketing and payment processing can do it themselves. The issue I have with that is that then a ton of companies think it's a good idea to ship a crappy "launcher" that needs to run on startup, taking up resources in the background while providing little to no added functionality. We can see that with PC games; it used to be just Steam, but now there's the Epic Games La…

If you don't like their launchers, don't use their apps, it's simple as that. They're free to create a software in a way they feel appropriate. You're free to use or not to use that software.

If you don't like the App Store, don't use an iPhone, it's simple as that. They're free to manage their platform in a way they feel appropriate. You're free to use or not use that platform.

---

I'm not necessarily saying I think Apple is in the right, but your argument doesn't hold because it works equally well when applied at a higher level, which runs counter to your point.

Re: Apple countersues Epic, seeks punitive damages

#287

Post by stale2002 » Wed, Sep 09, 2020, 6:50 AM UTC

threeseed wrote: post #175

gamblor956 wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is not what's supported by our current technology/copyright/intellectual property-related laws. That is your opinion. Please be clear about that. Currently, what Apple is doing violates EU and US antitrust laws. It's not a matter of what the user wants. It's a matter of Apple abusing its market position.

> Currently, what Apple is doing violates EU and US antitrust laws Please provide legal documents equivocally stating this.

Here you go:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sherman_Antitrust_Act_of_1890

Re: Apple countersues Epic, seeks punitive damages

#288

Post by valuearb » Wed, Sep 09, 2020, 6:50 AM UTC

mhh__ wrote: post #25

adsjhdashkj wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I felt like every poor quality controlled release they've had on OSX for the last 10 years has been trying to do that. I feel lost. Wanting to have a simple OS that lets me develop with unix tools but also "just works". The expense i pay for Apple products no longer follows this, for me.

I agree. Apple are pretty much the only company in the world with the money, engineering knowledge, and clout to do a privacy first open ecosystem. On an Apple product you are free only to what Apple says is Kosher, why? Their customers will buy anything apple does, why not just go for it and be more open?

Because customers love the walled garden. An open version of iPhone would be a disaster for Apple and its developers.

Re: Apple countersues Epic, seeks punitive damages

#289

Post by mehrdada » Wed, Sep 09, 2020, 6:52 AM UTC

threeseed wrote: post #176

jrockway wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It doesn't really matter what Epic is doing. Loot boxes, game engines, and game mechanics aren't the issue here. The issue is that I, a user of an iPhone, should be able to install whatever software I want. You know what? I played Fortnite and I hated it. I won't be installing Fortnite or buying any skins for it. But, Epic has the right to offer their product to me without interference. Apple already has $1000 of my…

> I, a user of an iPhone, should be able to install whatever software I want And you can. You just need to bypass Apple's security mechanisms.

You can, without bypassing security mechanisms. Simply acquire a free developer certificate to sign your own binaries. They work for a week but you can re-sign them.

Re: Apple countersues Epic, seeks punitive damages

#290

Post by DonaldPShimoda » Wed, Sep 09, 2020, 6:53 AM UTC

stale2002 wrote: post #281

cjoelrun wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn't a better analogy that car dealerships deserve revenue for selling Toyota's cars? Running an app store and providing a safe platform for users isn't free right?

> Isn't a better analogy that car dealerships deserve revenue for selling Toyota's cars? That depends. Is the car dealership making it impossible for me, as a buyer, to buy from different car dealerships, and forcing me to only buy it from them? That would be a more similar analogy. Epic would likely not have any problem at all, if it was possible to easily install the epic app store on the iPhone. But its not. Becau…

Uhhh well isn't it more like Tesla? There are no Tesla dealerships in the traditional sense — only Tesla-owned sales locations. You can't buy a new Tesla from any local dealership; you can only get them directly from Tesla's stores.

You can switch to Android, and in fact Android holds the global majority of smartphone users (yes yes, iOS is the majority in the US by a small margin).

I think we need to rethink the whole vertical integration thing entirely, instead of trying to reason about vertically integrated platforms in terms of non-vertically-integrated platforms. It doesn't seem to work.