Tech firms face growing resentment of parent employees during Covid-19 • Hacker News Board

Re: Tech firms face growing resentment of parent employees during Covid-19

#691

Post by m0zg » Wed, Sep 09, 2020, 2:40 AM UTC

gones00n wrote: post #676

m0zg wrote: post #261

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "Benefit society as a whole" sounds good in theory but rarely works in practice because people are inherently self-interested This is a very immature POV, IMO. Self interest can, and arguably _should_, be aligned with the benefit to society. That is, in fact, the only way to get _reliable_ benefit to society in the first place. Nobody gets anywhere by trying to piss up a rope. In any situation, you get the behavior…

My original response was to highlight that perhaps we shouldn't be elevating child-raising as a completely altruistic, society-benefiting endeavor. We're talking about a few tech companies, which is not representative of the U.S. (nevermind human civilization). "Amortized value to society" seems a very one-sided portrayal. Why should I earn less than someone who has kids, when skill/experience/contribution are equal?…

Because your contribution later in life is likely to be negative. You will be putting strain on social security, medical insurance, etc. A strain that is uncompensated by the contribution of your kids in their prime earning years.

Re: Tech firms face growing resentment of parent employees during Covid-19

#692

Post by eanzenberg » Wed, Sep 09, 2020, 2:40 AM UTC

rhizome wrote: post #459

rootusrootus wrote: post #204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ignoring the obvious downsides for a moment, I'd happily trade places with one of my childless coworkers right about now. This morning I went up and down the stairs at least ten times while trying to get my 7- and 9-year old kids successfully established in their first remote learning session, simultaneously participating in two consecutive Zoom meetings with coworkers, and figuring out how to solve a nagging issue i…

A BIG chunk of all that drama is due to the US social safety net not including childcare. That's the thing disturbing thing about these stories: employees are turned against each other when it's a) the company; and b) your tax dollars, not providing any kind of built-in childcare for society. In France, kids can go to preschool and have pre- and post- school childcare, which has to be paid, but it's only like $500/mo…

First, $500/month for each child in France is not that cheap or great, especially as you’re sacrificing earning potential.

Second, we have anecdotal data and you suggest we revamp a trillion dollar industry and incentive structure? Seems like we’re doing ok here, considering more people want to come in from France than emigrate there.

Re: Tech firms face growing resentment of parent employees during Covid-19

#693

Post by apta » Wed, Sep 09, 2020, 2:41 AM UTC

mike_d wrote: post #527

throwaway5792 wrote: post #366

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's the solution? Allow non parents to take 10 weeks off for health issues? What if then a parent has a baby and then has some other health issues. Can they take 20 weeks off? Or would that be unfair because as parents they can take 20 weeks vs 10 for the single person?

Is it too much to ask that everyone be treated equally? Family status is a protected class, unless you are childfree. If we said everyone except Hispanics gets an extra 10 weeks paid time off, HN would be losing its collective minds.

It's not the same analogy. People with children are not equal to people without, so they can be treated differently.

Re: Tech firms face growing resentment of parent employees during Covid-19

#694

Post by briandear » Wed, Sep 09, 2020, 2:42 AM UTC

lotsofpulp wrote: post #409

briandear wrote: post #382

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The thing is, there is a contingent of people that support the Democratic Party assuming they benefit or, at the very least, have someone else pay for it. As an example, if you took a cross section of supporters, if they had their taxes increase by 100% to support $some_policy, they would be less inclined to support that increase. But if you say “the rich” should pay for XYZ, then support grows substantially. There a…

>When a policy hits close to home: more work, higher taxes, reduced disposable income, suddenly support isn’t quite so robust. Yes, because I'm not going to put my family at a disadvantage versus others in society unless everyone is going to chip in. That's a perfectly reasonable position to hold.

But everyone doesn’t chip in. 47% of Americans pay no federal income taxes.

Re: Tech firms face growing resentment of parent employees during Covid-19

#695

Post by tbatchelli » Wed, Sep 09, 2020, 2:45 AM UTC

ergocoder wrote: post #653

ak217 wrote: post #618

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not disputing your other points, but: > we already subsidise child-rearing through taxation. Single, childless people are taxed at a higher rate In the US, being married is a tax advantage only if one partner earns much more than the other. Otherwise it's a wash. In the US, the child tax credit is $2K per child per year. In most cases, this does not come close to covering the costs of raising a child. So, no, for mos…

But having child is your choice. It's so strange to complain that government doesn't cover the cost of your child. You choose to have your child. I'm sure you plan to support your child. This is like me complaining that government doesn't subsidize my Tesla.

Having a child is not in the same league as buying a Tesla. That Tesla won’t be a contributing member of society and pay taxes when you retire.

Yes it is a decision. Sometimes selfish, most often foolish, but in all cases needed. And all benefit.

Re: Tech firms face growing resentment of parent employees during Covid-19

#696

Post by newtoday » Wed, Sep 09, 2020, 2:45 AM UTC

fizixer wrote: post #115

hn_throwaway_99 wrote: post #4

I am a middle-aged adult with no children who's worked at tech firms for the past couple decades. To be honest, the "resentment" of those without children have for "benefits" those with children get strikes me as extremely selfish, immature and displaying a total lack of empathy. This is time off specifically to take care of children, something now that has become exceedingly more difficult in Covid times. What's nex…

I have two babies: - My pure math research (nothing to do with my day job). Possibly resulting in a part-time PhD program. - My financial portfolio (again not related to my day job). These two babies of mine are as precious and valuable to me (maybe more) than your human babies are to you. Oh, and they take way more time. Do I get extra benefits as a parent of two babies?

Comparing your math research and stock portfolio to raising children, especially when using amount of time as part of the argument, is indescribably laughable.

Re: Tech firms face growing resentment of parent employees during Covid-19

#697

Post by betterunix2 » Wed, Sep 09, 2020, 2:46 AM UTC

dheera wrote: post #298

kevstev wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a mid 30s childless man I completely agree. We essentially sent people home on a Friday, told them to figure out a work from home situation, and then they were told welp your kids aren't going to school either, and whatever childcare you had lined up has now vanished too- and this is all happening in the course of a few days at most. So now you have kids to worry about all day, home schooling to oversee, focusing…

IMO the real broken part of this system is that people are not getting legally-protected personal time. A big part of the resentment is that a person who chose to have children ends up being able to be excused from work to take care of children, while a person who has no children is not as easily excused to do what they want to do, because it is deemed low priority compared to children. We need to be prioritizing peo…

"A big part of the resentment is that a person who chose to have children ends up being able to be excused from work to take care of children, while a person who has no children is not as easily excused to do what they want to do, because it is deemed low priority compared to children."

So, a few problems here:

1. Parenting is not a choice when you have children in your home.

2. Most parents do not want to be woken up in the middle of the night to change a diaper, only to have their child pee on them while they do so.

3. It is not about priorities. Children need adult caregivers because they cannot survive on their own. COVID restrictions have upended childcare arrangements but children still need care, and when nobody else is available it is up to parents to provide care for their children. Nobody is weighing childcare against other possible non-work-related activities, because childcare is not optional.

4. If like me someone has a toddler in their home, working from home is difficult. Even with a nanny around to watch my son, he still wants to see what mommy and daddy are up to in the "office." He has no concept of us being busy with work; from his perspective it is more like, "Daddy is playing with something and it must be fun, I want to try it!" so he will run over and "type" on my keyboard (you try writing code while someone is randomly pounding on your keyboard). For people like me it is not that we are asking for time to be parents, but rather for our employers to recognize that by requiring us to work from home they are putting us in an environment where we cannot be as productive as we were at the office.

"when people are working till 11pm"

What makes you think parents are not working late -- for example, because they cannot have uninterrupted time to work until after their children are asleep for the night?

Re: Tech firms face growing resentment of parent employees during Covid-19

#698

Post by xwdv » Wed, Sep 09, 2020, 2:49 AM UTC

hvs wrote: post #637

xwdv wrote: post #227

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I do not agree. I specifically chose not to have children because I knew of the burdens they would place on my career. Those who decided to have children should not get treated any differently. They knew what they were signing up for, they do not get to have things both ways.

They also knew there would be a global pandemic that would require them to both educate their children full-time and work full-time.

I fail to see why people think that matters.

Any number of tragedies or inconveniences can happen when you have children. If a perfect life where everything goes according to plan is your requirement for having kids then don’t have them.

Re: Tech firms face growing resentment of parent employees during Covid-19

#699

Post by tomcam » Wed, Sep 09, 2020, 2:51 AM UTC

rootusrootus wrote: post #204

kevstev wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a mid 30s childless man I completely agree. We essentially sent people home on a Friday, told them to figure out a work from home situation, and then they were told welp your kids aren't going to school either, and whatever childcare you had lined up has now vanished too- and this is all happening in the course of a few days at most. So now you have kids to worry about all day, home schooling to oversee, focusing…

Ignoring the obvious downsides for a moment, I'd happily trade places with one of my childless coworkers right about now. This morning I went up and down the stairs at least ten times while trying to get my 7- and 9-year old kids successfully established in their first remote learning session, simultaneously participating in two consecutive Zoom meetings with coworkers, and figuring out how to solve a nagging issue i…

> This morning I went up and down the stairs at least ten times

Not trying to be arch or disrespectful here, but I view these moments as an opportunity to get a quick cardio work on happening. (I work at home and I've had to make these trips for decades due to handicapped family members.)

Re: Tech firms face growing resentment of parent employees during Covid-19

#700

Post by shajznnckfke » Wed, Sep 09, 2020, 2:52 AM UTC

I felt that the headline of this article wasn’t well-supported by its content. Almost everyone in the article supports parents and understands how difficult they have it. The only exception was three commenters on Blind, which is notoriously full of trolls. That’s hardly evidence of “growing resentment”. People here on HN seem to agree, if that upvoted comments are indication.

To be honest, I feel this headline is clickbait trafficking on the anxiety felt by many parents.